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please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
02-19-2012, 07:06 PM
Post: #11
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
If you want the real source of web dev I would go to the w3c (the guys that set the standards)...

http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-se...ng-element

While it's true they are semantic tags it's pretty well accepted as bold visually as well. Because, making a strong tag look like regular text kind of defeats the purpose for a regular user.

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02-19-2012, 08:26 PM
Post: #12
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
i'm not going to be trolled, super sorry for that. <strong> & <em> have an effect on the presentation similar to <b> & <i> hence presentational & that should be left to the css. this is getting totally off topic. this is not a discussion forum, it's for suggestions & feedback to mybb. can we please try to follow the example set down by the experts & the support technician Mr @Shepperson at at the beginning of this thread & don't troll. as a side note, if you're interested in web design, as Mr @AlexSmith said you'll learn that the w3c set the standards & every doctype declaration (right at the top in the source of every web page) contains a reference to them, not mozilla.
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02-19-2012, 09:24 PM (This post was last modified: 02-19-2012 09:37 PM by Rafio.)
Post: #13
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
(02-19-2012 08:26 PM)antiother Wrote:  <strong> & <em> have an effect on the presentation similar to <b> & <i> hence presentational & that should be left to the css.

I have a text, how do you suggest to make parts of it different without <strong> & <em>? You may go with <span ="somethingImportant">, right, but that's not semantical, ergo basically good luck for text readers.

(02-19-2012 08:26 PM)antiother Wrote:  this is not a discussion forum, it's for suggestions & feedback to mybb

Well, I think this is discussion forum so people can bring up and discuss ideas for new MyBB. Or was I wrong?


(02-19-2012 08:26 PM)antiother Wrote:  said you'll learn that the w3c set the standards & every doctype declaration (right at the top in the source of every web page) contains a reference to them, not mozilla.

So... when you bring up W3Schools site to back your argument up is okay, but when I bring up MDN that btw is made and maintained by guys who is part of W3C its suddenly incorrect argument? Smile
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02-20-2012, 09:31 AM
Post: #14
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
Quote:<span ="somethingImportant">
it's actually <span class(or id)="bleh_bleh"> or <div class(or id)="bleh_bleh"> & you hit the spot. as soon as something has an effect on the presentation it should be left to the css. semantical means to give meaning. <strong> & <em>, even though they imply meaning, make text bold & italic. to quote w3 shcools:
Quote:The <em>, <strong>, <dfn>, <code>, <samp>, <kbd>, <var>, and <cite> tags are all phrase tags. They are not deprecated, but it is possible to achieve richer effect with CSS.

Quote:I think this is discussion forum so people can bring up and discuss ideas for new MyBB
this forum i believe is intended for suggestions & feedback to mybb & the experts like it says in the forum title. you can read the description of the forum here http://community.mybb.com/forum-151.html.
if you would like to comment on people's ideas, there's another section for that here http://ideas.mybb.com/

Quote:MDN that btw is made and maintained by guys who is part of W3C
mdn is developed by mozilla & maintained by mozilla & john-doe-developer, not the w3c. if you read the mdn opening statement you'll see that. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/.
if i am by any chance mistaken, my bad, please link to the source that states that they are.

as the mybb support technician mr @shepperson has already said at the beginning of this thread:
Quote:It's already been said that the 2.0 default theme will use PNG images and there will be no or minimal inline styling.
so if you wish to argue that <strong> & <em> is not styling in the html, take it up with him please.

the point of this thread was to make a suggestion or two to mybb & to give them some feedback as to how nice it is when all the inline styling has been replaced with css. you can always start your own thread here:
http://community.mybb.com/forum-10.html
explaining how <strong> & <em> are not presentational.
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02-20-2012, 09:42 AM
Post: #15
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
This forum is for discussing suggestions that are to be implemented into MyBB's core coding; you're free to comment and criticize on anything said here (just remember to play nice).

We do use some emphasis and strong phrase tags; they are not (by nature) meant to be presentational but are often used as such, and as a part of HTML, we will use them in 2.0 where we think they are necessary.
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02-20-2012, 03:55 PM
Post: #16
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
(02-20-2012 09:31 AM)antiother Wrote:  as the mybb support technician mr @shepperson has already said at the beginning of this thread:
Quote:It's already been said that the 2.0 default theme will use PNG images and there will be no or minimal inline styling.
so if you wish to argue that <strong> & <em> is not styling in the html, take it up with him please.

Yes, but <strong> and <em> are semantical. Browsers have default styling for those two tags... but they have also have default styling for links, headers, paragraphs, horizontal rules and input fields. You wanna get rid of those too because having default CSS makes them presentional by your wrong definition?

Oh, and that quote. I dont find it valid argument as strong/em are not inline styling. In fact, according to W3C "inline styling" means styling element of document by usage of style="" attribute.


(02-20-2012 09:31 AM)antiother Wrote:  mdn is developed by mozilla & maintained by mozilla & john-doe-developer, not the w3c. if you read the mdn opening statement you'll see that. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/.
if i am by any chance mistaken, my bad, please link to the source that states that they are

http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List#xM

Mozilla is member of W3C as well as is actively working on popularising good practices and standards in web. If you read their blog, you will realise Mozilla's engineers (guys behind MDN, also guys with heavy baggages of technical expertice) are actively participating in W3C works on new standards.

Now if you compare them, MDN says same thing W3C does + additional explanations.

W3C on strong:
"The strong element represents strong importance for its contents."

W3C on emphasis:
"The em element represents stress emphasis of its contents."

Those tags are semantical and they mark change of meaning of part of text. For you this means most browser will make strong tag bold and em tag italic... but for blind fellow who has software read for him they allow it to pressure importance of parts of text for him.

Once you replace those tags with <spans> you are right back to the non-semantical soup of tags guys like Mozilla (also Google, Apple, Opera et al) are trying to escape from by making HTML5 semantic.
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02-20-2012, 04:16 PM
Post: #17
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
true, a blind person and laziness are the only reason for using those tags. your link to justify that mdn has been founded by the w3c is not valid. you will notice it also has members like lg electronics, huawei, and red hat. semantics i believe doesn't require presentation to function hence semantics in html5 don't require presentation. thread flamed. unsubscribing.
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02-20-2012, 04:48 PM
Post: #18
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
(02-20-2012 04:16 PM)antiother Wrote:  true, a blind person and laziness are the only reason for using those tags. your link to justify that mdn has been founded by the w3c is not valid. you will notice it also has members like lg electronics, huawei, and red hat. semantics i believe doesn't require presentation to function hence semantics in html5 don't require presentation. thread flamed. unsubscribing.

Nowhere I said that MDN was founded by W3C, just that guys behind it are part of W3C and they have real influcence on standards.
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02-22-2012, 06:01 PM
Post: #19
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
<b> and <i> are presentational, <strong> and <em> are semantic. If you only want bold text, you should use CSS, but if you want to "represent strong importance" you should use <strong>.
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04-08-2012, 10:32 AM
Post: #20
RE: please do away with presentation junk in the html!!
<strong> and <em> are necessary if you want to make certain parts of a text bolded or italicized, but not the whole text. If you define bold and italic in the css class for that text then the WHOLE text will be bolded and italicized, but if you only want certain parts of the text bolded and italicized, you should use <strong> and <em> on those parts.
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