The problem I see with waiting for 2.0 (as it's currently explained to the public) is we don't know how far out it is: 2, 3, 5, 7 years? does anyone know?!?! one thing for sure is that development is incredibly slow and there isn't anyone to really blame for that - we have to earn a living outside of this project that we all volunteer for.
The issue with not knowing is by the time we do know, it'll likely be too late. Too many large projects will of likely moved on to other modern forum softwares and the chances of getting them back is probably pretty bleak.
Euan's & Tomm's approach seems practical, especially if it's laid out properly with a roadmap and changes are gradual. I think this might even appease some of the folks who brought up the idea of a 1.10.
I'd also like to add that I agree that adding some of the most popular plugins into the core product could help a lot as well - dvz hash, dvz mentions, myalerts, google seo, etc..
I'm not sure which I think is a better option: 2.0 rebuild from scratch, or incremental updates. But I do think the community should be involved in the decision. I think the community should have maybe an open vote on which they think is best, perhaps giving them 2 or 3 options, with a post explaining each option in turn. Then they vote option 1, 2 or 3.
A full rewrite is almost certainly best from a code standpoint, as well as only leading to 1 major incompatibility update. But of course, a single rewrite could leave us 3 years out at this point. Incremental updates solve the issue of update time somewhat, but at the cost of perhaps multiple plugin breaking updates.
This is why I think we need the community's input on this - are they happy with waiting? Or would they prefer more frequent compartmentalised rewrites at the cost of plugin breaking updates?
Whichever option we choose I think we should set realistic targets and get it planned out in some way. We say we want the community to help develop 2.0, but while we spend considerable time discussing things on Slack, I think a developer looking at the 2.0 repo would simply say "what should I start with?" - we have no real roadmap, no central list of things that need adding, fixing or changing.
We have several options:
1a) Stick to the plan. No 1.10.
1b) Same but provide a proper responsive theme (either in a minor update or as unofficial theme). Theme designers may use it for their own work.
2) Release 1.10 (or whatever it is called). Add some "modern" features and a responsive theme but don't refactor the core. Just pretend MyBB was a modern software and move on to MyBB 2.0.
3) Incremental updates.
Each one has its advantages and disadvantages and it's hard to tell which one will work for us.
I think we should involve the community in this decision which will also show them that we are listening to them.
(2017-10-03, 12:48 PM)Tom K. Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure which I think is a better option: 2.0 rebuild from scratch, or incremental updates. But I do think the community should be involved in the decision. I think the community should have maybe an open vote on which they think is best, perhaps giving them 2 or 3 options, with a post explaining each option in turn. Then they vote option 1, 2 or 3.
A full rewrite is almost certainly best from a code standpoint, as well as only leading to 1 major incompatibility update. But of course, a single rewrite could leave us 3 years out at this point. Incremental updates solve the issue of update time somewhat, but at the cost of perhaps multiple plugin breaking updates.
This is why I think we need the community's input on this - are they happy with waiting? Or would they prefer more frequent compartmentalised rewrites at the cost of plugin breaking updates?
Whichever option we choose I think we should set realistic targets and get it planned out in some way. We say we want the community to help develop 2.0, but while we spend considerable time discussing things on Slack, I think a developer looking at the 2.0 repo would simply say "what should I start with?" - we have no real roadmap, no central list of things that need adding, fixing or changing.
I think something we should work towards is including some of the more popular plugins in the core code itself so they can be maintained by the team - stuff that's bare minimum these days. maybe keep them as plugins so they can be updated more frequently than the core software. ship them with the core, let people know they're official plugins, etc.. this will cut down on 'some' of the plugin issues. a lot of plugins aren't even maintained any longer.
and then we have the whole issue with the amount of time it takes to accept new plugins and themes to the extend site. with how small our team is, it doesn't seem like an efficient use of our time to have a team member checking all of the submissions before they can be accepted, and then replying to upset theme and plugin developers who are mad that it's taking the team so long to approve their submissions.
we need to stop coddling users and put some burden & responsibilities on them as site owners - don't install plugins from users who aren't reputable. we should make it easy to spot who is considered reputable with some sort of badge or title within their extend page submissions. maybe have submissions approved and/or given the thumbs up by the community as a whole, not just our tiny team...
(2017-10-03, 06:34 PM)StefanT Wrote: [ -> ]We have several options:
1a) Stick to the plan. No 1.10.
1b) Same but provide a proper responsive theme (either in a minor update or as unofficial theme). Theme designers may use it for their own work.
2) Release 1.10 (or whatever it is called). Add some "modern" features and a responsive theme but don't refactor the core. Just pretend MyBB was a modern software and move on to MyBB 2.0.
3) Incremental updates.
Each one has its advantages and disadvantages and it's hard to tell which one will work for us.
when 1.10 was first being talked about, I was against it as I knew it would end up falling on the team, which would then delay 2.0 even further. but then the more I thought about it, I realized that 2.0 is a long way out as it is and we're not even sure of a time frame for an alpha or beta.
with your above options, I'd probably opt for #3 at this point.
(2017-10-03, 06:35 PM)Ben Wrote: [ -> ]I think we should involve the community in this decision which will also show them that we are listening to them.
agreed.
(2017-10-04, 06:34 AM)andrewjs18 Wrote: [ -> ]I think something we should work towards is including some of the more popular plugins in the core code itself so they can be maintained by the team - stuff that's bare minimum these days. maybe keep them as plugins so they can be updated more frequently than the core software. ship them with the core, let people know they're official plugins, etc.. this will cut down on 'some' of the plugin issues. a lot of plugins aren't even maintained any longer.
Users would still have to make sure that out-of-the-box plugins are up to date - if the core package is updated less often it will contain possibly unstable plugins. Extension updates can be more complex than their installation, too.
Please don't mistake my silence for apathy-- I just don't know what to say.
I think there are good points on both sides, but at the end of the day, I have to say that throwing another project (1.10) in the mix will just burden our already overburdened team even more.
As to updates breaking plugins, I personally feel that we shouldn't be breaking plugins and themes in minor point upgrades. End of. Software developers have a responsibility to their end-users and failing in this area is unacceptable, imo.
This was an internal staff discussion thread discussing the possible future direction of MyBB. In the interests of being open, we've made it visible now that the staff team have had a chance to pick up on the discussion and some of the possible directions.
This thread is closed for discussion, please keep all discussion to the main thread (which is now a sticky):
https://community.mybb.com/thread-213361.html