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DEBATE: Windows 95 as a webserver
#1
SinisterSlay Wrote:their older products have abotu the same stability, just none of the safe guards, and also Win 95 has very little dependncy and memory sharing between programs, for example, if Internet Explorer Crashes,and you have 3 windows open, only 1 will crash, the others will be fine.

I've been working on windows 95 since 1995, thats 12 years now, i know its quirks pretty well, I also know its strengths adn weaknesses, such as it won't run for mroe than 3 months or it will crash from an overflow error from the system uptime counter, but also you can pretty much shut down every processes and the system will keep running, you can repair most damage you make using safe mode or DOS. important files that you should neve rtouch really are in the system folder, nto scattered all over the place. My Documents folder is off the root of C.
The save dialogs will crash if you try and select no file type at all. teh save file dialogs will automatically save a default save location for each application, including Word, etc., rather than always pointing to the My Documents folder (which in 95 days, you never used anyways because until you installed Office, it didn't exist).

Apache has to be run in Console mode, no such thing as a service.
Viruses and malware can't install themselves as services.
There are very few places a virus can put itself to get itself run at startup.
Processes cannont be hidden, even with a rootkit.
End task actually stops all system activity, rather than loading another program.
Explorer.exe automatically reloads instantly after a crash, XP does not.
Explroer does not however, reload your system tray icons.
9x ssytem has winipcfg, allowing users a visual way to manage network addresses, 2000.XP/Vista do not.
XP is incredibly easy to hack into if you don't knwo the administrator account password, Windows 95doesn't even bother with admin accounts.
There are no problems with permissions in windows 95.
95 will not crash because of too many TCP connections as XP will in the name of Safety (thus the BSOD that stopped any new connections but allowed everything to keep running)

Obviously you get the idea that I could probably crash your system when you view this PM cause of too many pro/con's in one giant novel sized PM, but my point is that MS and fanboys over hype'd windows 95 vulnerabilities. They just aren;t an issue anymore, no hackers even care anymore.


BTW I do love debates like this Smile

I received this PM as a follow up to this thread, I then asked permission to post it here so that we could all have a friendly debate on whether it really is a good idea to be using an archaic version of Windows, which doesn't support modern technology as a webserver.
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The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn't.
#2
and for those wanting to check it


http://trevorsarchives.selfip.net
http://trevorsarchives.selfip.net/gsg
http://trevorsarchives.selfip.net/andrew

3 sites hosted by me,
and activity log (programmed it myself)
http://trevorsarchives.selfip.net/log

it might be a lil slow right now cause I'm bogging my net down using remote desktop to my home computer.
#3
In short, my answer to this would be a resounding no; now let me explain why.

Windows 95 reached it's end of life support wise on 31st December, 2002. This means that since then, no new patches have been released by Microsoft to protect against any new threats, add to this the fact that everything on the OS runs with the same permissions and network security roughly equivalent to putting a sign on your door saying "Hey, the doors unlocked and the Dog's asleep, come on in!" you are really asking for trouble.

Claiming proudly that over 800 people were connected to your server is really nothing at all to be proud of due to the sheer fact they were connected to your server. If you OS was properly hardened they wouldn't have even been able to connect to it.

Also, having a server that crashes every three months really isn't a good thing. You claim that Linux runs too slow, yet you also installed a GUI; servers don't need a GUI and running one is just redundant waste, a properly configured Linux server will run rock solid for months on end with no problems at all.

I will post more later, but right now I need to go for tea.
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The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn't.
#4
Hey whatever floats your boat.
#5
Laugh my F*** lime of... That is the most funniest thing I have ever read. I read the other thread as well. Let me start from the beginning...
other M$ operating system.

Quote:I've been working on windows 95 since 1995, thats 12 years now, i know its quirks pretty well, I also know its strengths adn weaknesses, such as it won't run for mroe than 3 months or it will crash from an overflow error from the system uptime counter, but also you can pretty much shut down every processes and the system will keep running, you can repair most damage you make using safe mode or DOS. important files that you should neve rtouch really are in the system folder, nto scattered all over the place. My Documents folder is off the root of C.

First off... Get with the times... If I was hosting a site and the owner said "ya I run a Windows 95 server" I think I would slap you.

My current record for a linux server is siting at about 7 Months without shutting off. 3 Months then 95 crashes? Kinda pathetic.

Secondly, In Ubuntu you don't have to kill any processes because it runs only what it needs.

If you do happen to mess something up you can go into the command line and fix it... The reason you would start 95 in safe mode is because the operating system olive up.

Quote:Apache has to be run in Console mode, no such thing as a service.

So then you need to manually start it ever time you need to restart the server? In linux it's a daemon, and you shouldn't have to restart it anyways.

Quote:Viruses and malware can't install themselves as services.
There are very few places a virus can put itself to get itself run at startup.
Processes cannont be hidden, even with a rootkit.
End task actually stops all system activity, rather than loading another program.

Viruses and Malware don't even exist on linux. And if you do manage to get a virus on linux then you installed it. All the rest of the stuff you dais doesn't happen on linux web server... or desktop for that mater.

Quote:There are no problems with permissions in windows 95.

This point I will have to agree with you on.

Quote:Obviously you get the idea that I could probably crash your system when you view this PM cause of too many pro/con's in one giant novel sized PM, but my point is that MS and fanboys over hype'd windows 95 vulnerabilities. They just aren;t an issue anymore, no hackers even care anymore.

You couldn't crash the system with a PM. They aren't an issue anymore id because people are smart enough not to use it.

Note for every one: If your hosting company is using a win 95 server... look for a new one cuz thats just sad.
#6
well it'll crash every 3 months, but you can leave the error messag eon screen if you want too, it doesn't hurt you. and if 800 users connected to an XP machine it will actually cause the computer to restart.
Linux GUI, yeah for sure, useless, can't say i'm very familure with CLI in Linux though, I know my way around BASH but anctually setting up tht eHTTP and FTP server was really confusing, i did it in class and didnt really understand how.
As for security, witht he router up it has never been hacked, that one ocasion was without a router, and it was attacked by trolling bots, I have examples of these bots as I'm sure anyone with an FTP server does, I have roughly 2k banned IP addresses now for server hammering, usually with Administrator, which of course doesn't exist. 95 has a difference in security compared to NT system, NT systems use Sharing to allow its own applcations to run (System user) while 9x does not have this. Thus, if a folder or drive is not shared, it is completely impossible to access it over a network, no matter ho wmuch hacking you do, because the computer simply won't talk.
If you have it shared and you are open to internet traffic, the shared file is broadcast across the known net, very bad thing Smile.

And a server needing to go down for 2 minutes once every 3 months, is pretty good id say. 90% of the down time the server has ever had was actually due to a faulty router (since fixed). in the servers life I'd say its been down for about 0.01% of that time, which is only measureable now cause I took it down last night for error scans, and put up the backup server in its place so that the company website would remain (http://gsg.2ya.com) but the other stuff disappears because its just a normal XP computer... Laptop actually, that can't handle the strain of a webserver like the 95 can.
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Maddox Wrote:Either fart loud and deny it, or don't fart at all. Leave the farting to men, at least we know how to get the job done.
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#7
SinisterSlay Wrote:their older products have abotu the same stability, just none of the safe guards, and also Win 95 has very little dependncy and memory sharing between programs, for example, if Internet Explorer Crashes,and you have 3 windows open, only 1 will crash, the others will be fine.
FALSE. Internet Explorer has always run off the same process. If the program crashes, the process ends, and all windows disappear.
SinisterSlay Wrote:I've been working on windows 95 since 1995, thats 12 years now, i know its quirks pretty well, I also know its strengths adn weaknesses, such as it won't run for mroe than 3 months or it will crash from an overflow error from the system uptime counter, but also you can pretty much shut down every processes and the system will keep running, you can repair most damage you make using safe mode or DOS.
Firstly, a server that crashes ever few months is a big problem. I would personally hate having to fix everything again and again just to keep my sites online.

Secondly, shutting every process will damage the system, not keep it running. I don't know what you are doing but you are certainly not closing every single one if Windows is still running fine.
SinisterSlay Wrote:important files that you should neve rtouch really are in the system folder, nto scattered all over the place. My Documents folder is off the root of C.
Important files are stored in system folders in every Windows version. On Linux they are all stored in a system folder and you need to be root to edit them at all.
SinisterSlay Wrote:The save dialogs will crash if you try and select no file type at all. teh save file dialogs will automatically save a default save location for each application, including Word, etc., rather than always pointing to the My Documents folder (which in 95 days, you never used anyways because until you installed Office, it didn't exist).
I fail to see how a save dialog crashing instead of giving a "helpful" error message is a good thing...
SinisterSlay Wrote:Explorer.exe automatically reloads instantly after a crash, XP does not.
Explroer does not however, reload your system tray icons.
FALSE. XP always reloads explorer.exe instantly. You obviously haven't used XP at all if you think this!

Explorer not loading tray icons is a good thing now is it?
SinisterSlay Wrote:Obviously you get the idea that I could probably crash your system when you view this PM cause of too many pro/con's in one giant novel sized PM, but my point is that MS and fanboys over hype'd windows 95 vulnerabilities. They just aren;t an issue anymore, no hackers even care anymore.
You could never crash any of our systems since I assume most of us use systems created after 1995, and as you can see above, I've pretty much destroyed a large part of your argument for Win 95...

Oh, and hackers don't care because there are hardly any people who use Win 95...but that doesn't mean the viruses aren't still out there and that it is safe!
#8
Snake Wrote:Laugh my F*** lime of... That is the most funniest thing I have ever read. I read the other thread as well. SinisterSlay... you are so stupid. Let me start from the beginning...
other M$ operating system.

Quote:I've been working on windows 95 since 1995, thats 12 years now, i know its quirks pretty well, I also know its strengths adn weaknesses, such as it won't run for mroe than 3 months or it will crash from an overflow error from the system uptime counter, but also you can pretty much shut down every processes and the system will keep running, you can repair most damage you make using safe mode or DOS. important files that you should neve rtouch really are in the system folder, nto scattered all over the place. My Documents folder is off the root of C.

First off... Get with the times... If I was hosting a site and the owner said "ya I run a Windows 95 server" I think I would slap you.

My current record for a linux server is siting at about 7 Months without shutting off. 3 Months then 95 crashes? Kinda pathetic.

Secondly, In Ubuntu you don't have to kill any processes because it runs only what it needs.

If you do happen to mess something up you can go into the command line and fix it... The reason you would start 95 in safe mode is because the operating system olive up.

Quote:Apache has to be run in Console mode, no such thing as a service.

So then you need to manually start it ever time you need to restart the server? In linux it's a daemon, and you shouldn't have to restart it anyways.

Quote:Viruses and malware can't install themselves as services.
There are very few places a virus can put itself to get itself run at startup.
Processes cannont be hidden, even with a rootkit.
End task actually stops all system activity, rather than loading another program.

Viruses and Malware don't even exist on linux. And if you do manage to get a virus on linux then you installed it. All the rest of the stuff you dais doesn't happen on linux web server... or desktop for that mater.

Quote:There are no problems with permissions in windows 95.

This point I will have to agree with you on.

Quote:Obviously you get the idea that I could probably crash your system when you view this PM cause of too many pro/con's in one giant novel sized PM, but my point is that MS and fanboys over hype'd windows 95 vulnerabilities. They just aren;t an issue anymore, no hackers even care anymore.

You couldn't crash the system with a PM. They aren't an issue anymore id because people are smart enough not to use it.

Note for every one: If your hosting company is using a win 95 server... look for a new one cuz thats just sad.
The computer has been officially running non stop, this is without ever losing power, for 7 years, with the odd occasion i shut it off and take it outside to blow the dust out of it.

the server DOES start automatically, check this out some time

click your start menu
All programs
start up
any exe's adn shortcuts here will be fired apon system startup, bypassed if you start system holding your ALT key.

Please don't call me stupid, thats rude, especially with the ignorance you posted with.

if i was hosting huge critical sites with scripts, online access, database, logins, etc. I would care, but its just a simple webserver hosting static pages and images. the system itself is overkill as it is.
DrPoodle Wrote:
SinisterSlay Wrote:their older products have abotu the same stability, just none of the safe guards, and also Win 95 has very little dependncy and memory sharing between programs, for example, if Internet Explorer Crashes,and you have 3 windows open, only 1 will crash, the others will be fine.
FALSE. Internet Explorer has always run off the same process. If the program crashes, the process ends, and all windows disappear.
SinisterSlay Wrote:I've been working on windows 95 since 1995, thats 12 years now, i know its quirks pretty well, I also know its strengths adn weaknesses, such as it won't run for mroe than 3 months or it will crash from an overflow error from the system uptime counter, but also you can pretty much shut down every processes and the system will keep running, you can repair most damage you make using safe mode or DOS.
Firstly, a server that crashes ever few months is a big problem. I would personally hate having to fix everything again and again just to keep my sites online.

Secondly, shutting every process will damage the system, not keep it running. I don't know what you are doing but you are certainly not closing every single one if Windows is still running fine.
SinisterSlay Wrote:important files that you should neve rtouch really are in the system folder, nto scattered all over the place. My Documents folder is off the root of C.
Important files are stored in system folders in every Windows version. On Linux they are all stored in a system folder and you need to be root to edit them at all.
SinisterSlay Wrote:The save dialogs will crash if you try and select no file type at all. teh save file dialogs will automatically save a default save location for each application, including Word, etc., rather than always pointing to the My Documents folder (which in 95 days, you never used anyways because until you installed Office, it didn't exist).
I fail to see how a save dialog crashing instead of giving a "helpful" error message is a good thing...
SinisterSlay Wrote:Explorer.exe automatically reloads instantly after a crash, XP does not.
Explroer does not however, reload your system tray icons.
FALSE. XP always reloads explorer.exe instantly. You obviously haven't used XP at all if you think this!

Explorer not loading tray icons is a good thing now is it?
SinisterSlay Wrote:Obviously you get the idea that I could probably crash your system when you view this PM cause of too many pro/con's in one giant novel sized PM, but my point is that MS and fanboys over hype'd windows 95 vulnerabilities. They just aren;t an issue anymore, no hackers even care anymore.
You could never crash any of our systems since I assume most of us use systems created after 1995, and as you can see above, I've pretty much destroyed a large part of your argument for Win 95...

Oh, and hackers don't care because there are hardly any people who use Win 95...but that doesn't mean the viruses aren't still out there and that it is safe!

yoru browser would crash if there was too much text.

the system doesn't crash, ti gets an error, a simple error youc an ignore. even htiting close on it causes explorer to close and reload.

These were all pro's and cons, please read more carefully.

end task yoru explorer and coutn how long till it reloads.

Internet explorer does not use the same process, ill show you when i get home.

win 95 system processes don't show in task manager. you can close every visable process without problems
[Image: deathwingsig.jpg]
Maddox Wrote:Either fart loud and deny it, or don't fart at all. Leave the farting to men, at least we know how to get the job done.
Source
#9
Snake Wrote:
Quote:There are no problems with permissions in windows 95.

This point I will have to agree with you on.

Thats because everyone and everything has access to all the devices in your computer and all the files on your hard drive.
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#10
MiNT Wrote:
Snake Wrote:
Quote:There are no problems with permissions in windows 95.

This point I will have to agree with you on.

Thats because everyone and everything has access to all the devices in your computer and all the files on your hard drive.

lol Exactly!


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