(2012-08-09, 08:00 PM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]And Xenforo uses Zend and phpbb4 is likely to use Symfony 2. Trend wise Frameworks are becoming more common in larger projects. That's obvious.
Yes, have you ever wondered why they are moving to frameworks?
(2012-08-09, 07:14 PM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]Do I dare respond to that?
Your "lack of vision" comment irks me the most.
I personally don't see how using a pre-built framework is vision. We've had the discussion numerous times now and it's obvious how some feel on both sides. You've not proven that a framework will benefit the project and some believe it won't. Not because frameworks are bad but because it may not fit well with MyBB.
It's like using Joomla for it's community software. Why would you install all that code and software just to use the small part of the software.
Frameworks could very well be the future but it bothers me that seemingly every year there is a better one released.
If you want vision...here. Build MyBB with MVC built specifically with forums in mind and have MyBB become a framework for everyone else. Use minimal libraries like jquery and possible a template engine. Create a new architecture from the ground up that will focus on forums.
Correct me if I'm wrong but here is what I understand are the reasons we're using a framework.
1. It will speed up development time. (community overall is patient)
2. Frameworks are the future standard. (you can still write to current/future standards from scratch)
Now here are reasons some are against it.
1. All plugins and themes will break.
2. Framework MVC architecture is more complicated to learn.
3. Code of frameworks can be wasteful
4. Creating new plugins may be more difficult and time consuming
5. A new URL structure will be required causing SEO issues (huge personal concern)
6. Using a framework will tie the project too closely to another project possibly causing issues with development time frames and security
I'm no longer going to discuss that with you, I've done it enough already. If you've got any other questions feel free to ask.
(2012-08-09, 07:14 PM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:If it was really like that, do you think I'd spend my free time doing this? I do this because I like, I care about the project
And do you think if we didn't care we'd be wasting our breathe on posting concerns? We do this because we care about the project too.
To be honest with you, I believe you (target audience which includes you) care more about your websites (and you've got the right! and I don't criticize you for that) than the project. You can't really compare the "breathe and ours concerns" about the project with the ones we (team) have about the project. You care about your website and consequently care about the project but as a second thing. At least that's what I think, I may be wrong of course.
(2012-08-09, 07:14 PM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]The dev team have made up their minds imho. A framework is gonna happen. That fact doesn't turn me into a sheep following blindly. It also doesn't mean I'm upset or angry with the team. I just believe the decision was done without the community input and based on the team responses it would seem that was intentional. As if you guys didn't give 2 sh-its what we thought about how MyBB was coded because as you say...we're not clients and we're not the coders.
Just like we haven't asked what you thought about how 1.6 or 1.8 would or wouldn't work behind the scenes, we didn't do it for 2.0 either. We chose how it will work because it's how we think it should work. In the end, it's us who develop it. not you. It is that simple. If you want it differently, go higher someone else or find free developers to do it. We're doing it this way because it is what reflects our vision for the project.
(2012-08-09, 07:14 PM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]I asked about how MyBB would feel about forks and no response was given but I'll be honest. I had a slew of contacts from members stating they think they same thing. That imho should make the team pause. So this is a heads up...if you go Framework and alienate the base you do run the risk of having the community create a 1.8x fork. Some of us with successful sites will honestly have no choice. I can't personally deal with years of custom code work destroyed because dev team wants to stir things up.
You probably didn't see Tomm's response. We're ok with any fork. It won't stop us from doing what we think is right.
Quote:Yes, have you ever wondered why they are moving to frameworks?
I know why. Speed and ease of development. Isn't that really the only reason anyone uses a framework? Because there is nothing in any framework that couldn't be coded by developers themselves. These are good and valid reasons to use a framework but there are also reasons NOT to use one. Unsure if the dev team recognizes the possible negative effects.
Quote:To be honest with you, I believe you (target audience which includes you) care more about your websites
Well before I had the success of my forums I was touting the virtues of MyBB. Unsure what makes you believe that simply because I have current success I care less than I did before. If anything I care more now as I have years vested into the project.
Quote:Just like we haven't asked what you thought about how 1.6 or 1.8 would or wouldn't work behind the scenes
Um...hopefully I'm not breaking some confidence here but I was asked on both releases if I had ideas for features. Simply put I use MyBB more than anyone else and while I don't demand features I think I have a strong target audience perspective. I'm fairly sure I wasn't the only guy asked either. Have a feeling a few big board members were asked for wish lists.
Quote: In the end, it's us who develop it. not you. It is that simple. If you want it differently, go higher someone else or find free developers to do it. We're doing it this way because it is what reflects our vision for the project.
Absolutely. That's definitely end of any argument. Dev team runs this project and we just click download. But I wonder how well this project would do if members didn't bother reporting bugs and security issues. Or how well it would do if theme authors and plugin developers walked away. But you're right. You don't need us. We're nobody.
I'm sorry Pirata you feel this way toward those concerned about the project but I bow to your position as actually being on the dev team.
I'll stop posting in this thread now. While I like discussing various things on this site my goal isn't to tick people off...it's to just discuss it. If you want you can reply and have last word. You have my promise I won't respond.
Thanks for discussion and seriously no hard feelings.
(2012-08-09, 09:01 PM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:Just like we haven't asked what you thought about how 1.6 or 1.8 would or wouldn't work behind the scenes
Um...hopefully I'm not breaking some confidence here but I was asked on both releases if I had ideas for features. Simply put I use MyBB more than anyone else and while I don't demand features I think I have a strong target audience perspective. I'm fairly sure I wasn't the only guy asked either. Have a feeling a few big board members were asked for wish lists.
Oh, then we have done the same for 2.0:
http://community.mybb.com/forum-152.html
We have never asked you (the community) (at least that I know of) for opinion on how the software should be developed. We asked you for ideas, features, bug reports but not how should do them (except on a few rare occasions).
(2012-08-09, 09:01 PM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]Quote: In the end, it's us who develop it. not you. It is that simple. If you want it differently, go higher someone else or find free developers to do it. We're doing it this way because it is what reflects our vision for the project.
Absolutely. That's definitely end of any argument. Dev team runs this project and we just click download. But I wonder how well this project would do if members didn't bother reporting bugs and security issues. Or how well it would do if theme authors and plugin developers walked away. But you're right. You don't need us. We're nobody.
I'm sorry Pirata you feel this way toward those concerned about the project but I bow to your position as actually being on the dev team.
I'll stop posting in this thread now. While I like discussing various things on this site my goal isn't to tick people off...it's to just discuss it. If you want you can reply and have last word. You have my promise I won't respond.
Thanks for discussion and seriously no hard feelings.
You keep saying that I'm saying we don't need you. I've said in this thread the opposite already but I have also explained why we (sometimes) need to ignore what people say and go on with what we think is right.
One of the times I said that can be found here:
http://community.mybb.com/thread-123903-...#pid896971
Now if you insist in putting words I didn't say, in my mouth, yes the conversation is over (at least for me).
(2012-08-09, 09:01 PM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]I know why. Speed and ease of development. Isn't that really the only reason anyone uses a framework? Because there is nothing in any framework that couldn't be coded by developers themselves. These are good and valid reasons to use a framework but there are also reasons NOT to use one. Unsure if the dev team recognizes the possible negative effects.
Have you ever developed anything big? Do you know where industry standard for web apps is today?
(2012-08-09, 08:03 PM)euantor Wrote: [ -> ]I'm really against Zend. It's been shown to be one of the slowest frameworks out there so it's a no go from me just because of that fact. Symfony isn't bad but it's syntax in some ways is just so alien to those of us who learned and are used to good old procedural PHP.
Zend can be great, and fast if it is implemented correctly. It requires a fair bit of know how and research to get the optimal performance out of it. I used it a while back and found it pretty good, though I spent a lot of time tweaking it.
The thing with the better frameworks is that they allow you to pick and choose what you need without having to load the whole library, in the early days a lot of them included everything and made you load a good deal of it constantly which caused a fair drain on your server.
I'd actually support the idea of a unique myBB framework, it may require more work, but at least you aren't dependent on other projects and you can get the latest and greatest more easily without having to wait for the other dev team to catch up. It's like a new framework hits the internet every few weeks, and they all tout their wares as the best and latest out there, which makes it difficult to make the best and most well informed decision on Framework. MyBB releasing it's own would certainly make it more bleeding edge..
Anyway it is a shame this thread denigrated the way it did
(2012-08-09, 11:45 PM)Dannymh Wrote: [ -> ]MyBB releasing it's own would certainly make it more bleeding edge..
Or result in MyBB team wasting year or two trying to catch up to competition.
(2012-08-10, 02:22 AM)Rafio Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-08-09, 11:45 PM)Dannymh Wrote: [ -> ]MyBB releasing it's own would certainly make it more bleeding edge..
Or result in MyBB team wasting year or two trying to catch up to competition.
I cant say that would be time "wasted" I would say it would be time well spent
We won't be writing our own framework for 2.0. It just won't happen. You're looking at 2.0 being released around 2016-18 then, we're only a small group of developers trying to make great software. There's no need to reinvent the wheel to do that. I'd like to see 2.0 be released around 2014 if possible but unless we stick to our current plan 2.0 will never be released. 1.8 is taking longer than expected and so will 2.0 so speeding up the development process of new releases is vital for producing a secure, stable, and efficient product.
Don't stick to too much of a rigid release date or process. I have worked as part of a comercisl product release team. When we had share holders to answer too we released 1 update a quarter. Thankfully we were bought our by a new partner who reprivatised us. This made our release cycle less stringent and therefore Rach release is now of a much higher quality