(2019-08-20, 10:55 AM)Serpius Wrote: [ -> ]How can I justify that I am willing to give support to a verified 'leak' and/or 'black hat' website
Stopped reading here. The best part about this community is that you don't
have to provide support to anyone. You're choosing to. You can choose to vett all the sites that you're providing support to and choose which ones, based on what you see, you want to provide support to.
I suppose I should read the rest of this reply.
(2019-08-20, 10:55 AM)Serpius Wrote: [ -> ]So, tell me... how can MyBB.com or anyone for that matter support this in the name of "equality"?
Because, as an open-source piece of software, MyBB does not get to control who uses it and for what purpose.
(2019-08-20, 10:55 AM)Serpius Wrote: [ -> ]It's not the question of MyBB.com becoming "moral police", it's the question of whether or not MyBB.com supports software piracy by continuing to provide MyBB forum software support to those kinds of websites.
MyBB supports the creation of websites; you're never going to get a 100% amicable base of websites that use your software -- you're just not. And since this isn't a commercial entity with licensing restrictions, you can't decide to revoke a license because someone has uploaded a ripped theme, or whatever.
(2019-08-20, 09:21 AM)Ashley1 Wrote: [ -> ]I have never heard of white hat hacking. Hacking is hacking, an illegal activity.
Yes and no. It's a bit of both.
This
WEBPAGE will explain this better than I can.
You know when we all get the latest MyBB forum software update, did you notice that first section you see relates to 'security vulnerabilities'?
This happens when ethical (white hat) hackers found security issues within the MyBB core programming and reported this to the appropriate MyBB software team for assessment and resolution of those issues.
This is done
BEFORE the general public knows about these security vulnerabilities.
(2019-08-20, 11:15 AM)Serpius Wrote: [ -> ] (2019-08-20, 09:21 AM)Ashley1 Wrote: [ -> ]I have never heard of white hat hacking. Hacking is hacking, an illegal activity.
Yes and no. It's a bit of both.
This WEBPAGE will explain this better than I can.
You know when we all get the latest MyBB forum software update, did you notice that first section you see relates to 'security vulnerabilities'?
This happens when ethical (white hat) hackers found security issues within the MyBB core programming and reported this to the appropriate MyBB software team for assessment and resolution of those issues.
This is done BEFORE the general public knows about these security vulnerabilities.
Yes, but this is arguing the trivial case. As reasonable people i think we know what i am talking about, and the type of sites i am referring to when i say hacking.
(2019-08-20, 11:04 AM)Ben Cousins Wrote: [ -> ]MyBB supports the creation of websites; you're never going to get a 100% amicable base of websites that use your software -- you're just not. And since this isn't a commercial entity with licensing restrictions, you can't decide to revoke a license because someone has uploaded a ripped theme, or whatever.
I noticed that you didn't address the loss of money that these honest software authors face every time that their piece of software is being used for FREE.
"you can't decide to revoke a license because someone has uploaded a ripped theme, or whatever."
Maybe, legally, MyBB.com can't revoke the said website's license to use the forum software, but MyBB.com team can DENY providing support to those said websites that are dealing in pirated software.
Using the excuse, "Oh, someone just uploaded a ripped theme/plugin, well, we can't stop providing software support to that website" is a very weak argument, especially to software authors who have spent hours working on their product only to see it stolen for someone else's profit.
This thread can go on and on without any good resolution to this complex issue.
The question is, should MyBB.com revisit their Support policies and see if it needs a bit more tweaking?
(2019-08-20, 11:31 AM)Serpius Wrote: [ -> ]This thread can go on and on without any good resolution to this complex issue.
It’s only going to continue because you’re being thick, either intentionally or unintentionally.
Allow me to put this another way: the MyBB team have taken a stance on what they will officially support - this has no bearing at all on what *you* as a member of this community choose to do. You can choose to provide support to literally nobody if you wanted to. Wouldn’t make a scrap of difference.
So, no, I do not agree that the question is whether or not MyBB should revise their support policy, because they already have - the question is whether or not you can accept it for what it is, or if you’re going to be obstructionist in yet another thread. At the end of the day, your opinion is not the only one that matters - this is a community, made up of many hundreds of people.
Do I believe that boards that explicitly post leaked themes should be shut down? Yes. I do. Do I feel like websites that condone hacking should be shut down? Yes. I do. Do I feel that since that’ll never happen, I should begrudge them the ability to get support? No. I do not. Because I accept that for what it is - the team’s stance.
Frankly, it’s time you did the same.
To clarify, the support eligibility policy is primarily about MyBB staff supporting boards. We used to have a policy that prevented those with SEP denials from posting in the support section at all.
However, the SEP used to be very broad, and it used to affect an entire user. This led to situations where a user had one forum banned for being of an adult nature, then couldn't get support for their board on puppy care. This was less than ideal.
MyBB does not, in any way, condone or promoted the theft of intellectual property, especially from those who contribute to our project. But, MyBB provides software, we don't all have law degrees and we don't want to apply rules abritrarily. What one staff member may think is immoral might be perfectly acceptable for another. This leads to conflicts, where do we draw the line? Do we just lock threads for one users because I don't like it, but then Kawaii is fine with it so doesn't?
That is no way to run a policy. With "hacking" where do you draw the line? Would we deny support to a forum about emulation? Many of those forums skirt the fringes of intellectual property theft, or flaunt EULAs by decompiling and reverse engineering code. For many this is also "hacking".
It was therefore decided that to avoid such complexities the SEP would be relaxed considerably. If we see thread where people are blatantly ripping and profiting off of premium themes on our site, then we would remove it. But we aren't in the business of, nor able to, ensure that any site we give support to is distributing these things. We often cannot see the contents of forums ahead of time, and we aren't going to make premium accounts on many of these forums then check through thousands of posts to check their legality.
In a final note, it is worth mentioning that generally speaking the Code Of Conduct applies to contributors, and the CoC usage in the SEP is a guideline.
So in summary, yes they are eligible for support, but we will not force a member of the team to go against their morals to support them.
(2019-08-20, 01:27 PM)Tom K. Wrote: [ -> ]To clarify, the support eligibility policy is primarily about MyBB staff supporting boards. We used to have a policy that prevented those with SEP denials from posting in the support section at all.
However, the SEP used to be very broad, and it used to affect an entire user. This led to situations where a user had one forum banned for being of an adult nature, then couldn't get support for their board on puppy care. This was less than ideal.
MyBB does not, in any way, condone or promoted the theft of intellectual property, especially from those who contribute to our project. But, MyBB provides software, we don't all have law degrees and we don't want to apply rules abritrarily. What one staff member may think is immoral might be perfectly acceptable for another. This leads to conflicts, where do we draw the line? Do we just lock threads for one users because I don't like it, but then Kawaii is fine with it so doesn't?
That is no way to run a policy. With "hacking" where do you draw the line? Would we deny support to a forum about emulation? Many of those forums skirt the fringes of intellectual property theft, or flaunt EULAs by decompiling and reverse engineering code. For many this is also "hacking".
It was therefore decided that to avoid such complexities the SEP would be relaxed considerably. If we see thread where people are blatantly ripping and profiting off of premium themes on our site, then we would remove it. But we aren't in the business of, nor able to, ensure that any site we give support to is distributing these things. We often cannot see the contents of forums ahead of time, and we aren't going to make premium accounts on many of these forums then check through thousands of posts to check their legality.
In a final note, it is worth mentioning that generally speaking the Code Of Conduct applies to contributors, and the CoC usage in the SEP is a guideline.
So in summary, yes they are eligible for support, but we will not force a member of the team to go against their morals to support them.
IMO this is a mistake that's going to end up costing MyBB if not already. The policy before was good. If there is a team member who has a conflicting opinion or conflicting "moral" idea, then as team leader i would remove that person from the team or not appoint them as team member at all. That's the real world, if you apply for a job, then you comply with it's policy, the policy does not get changed to suit you.
The
Code of Conduct and
Support Eligibility Policy disallow content universally recognized as illegal (through moderation and/or removal, and revocation of support status account-wide, respectively).
The 2018 changes addressed requirements previously left for interpretation and removed conditions we deemed unnecessary for the SEP.
The Contributor Covenant's
Code of Conduct v1.4.0 template
we have adopted earlier was extended with concerns that apply both to our platforms (Forums, Discord, GitHub discussions) and SEP criteria:
https://mybb.com/about/conduct/ Wrote:In order to assure optimal conditions within the community and reduce negative effects on external environment, we pledge to respect widely recognized practices regarding prevention of illegal and unethical activity including, but not limited to unlawful distribution of intellectual property, license violations, propagating hateful content and materials endangering privacy, safety and security.
These clarify the
Appropriateness of Content requirements for MyBB's Support Eligibility Policy rules, in addition to
Minimum Copyright ("powered by" or equivalent).
Most important changes through
removal included:
Hacking (includes "leaks"), to prevent the term hacking from being applied to technical discussions that are not objectively illegal/unethical, and
pornography, as we concluded the SEP shouldn't deny support to forums with adult content that is not objectively illegal/unethical (requiring "NSFW" warnings when requesting support; we added an explicit clarification regarding adult content later on).
Support denial reasons set up with
MySupport that you may encounter here currently include:
- MyBB copyright violation (via SEP)
- Illegal file distribution / license violation (via CoC)
- Hateful content (via CoC)
- Danger to privacy/safety/security (via CoC)
In general we don't restrict discussions involving accounts that were denied support (the status of which is displayed next to users' posts), however they cannot create new threads in
General,
Installation and Upgrades, and
Merge System support forums.
If you believe that support denial should apply to certain accounts seeking support, you can report the support thread or profile; if support has been denied to you and you believe it should not according to the current Policy, you can contact us in the
Private Inquiries forum.
(2019-08-20, 12:18 PM)Ben Cousins Wrote: [ -> ] (2019-08-20, 11:31 AM)Serpius Wrote: [ -> ]This thread can go on and on without any good resolution to this complex issue.
It’s only going to continue because you’re being thick, either intentionally or unintentionally.
Allow me to put this another way: the MyBB team have taken a stance on what they will officially support - this has no bearing at all on what *you* as a member of this community choose to do. You can choose to provide support to literally nobody if you wanted to. Wouldn’t make a scrap of difference.
So, no, I do not agree that the question is whether or not MyBB should revise their support policy, because they already have - the question is whether or not you can accept it for what it is, or if you’re going to be obstructionist in yet another thread. At the end of the day, your opinion is not the only one that matters - this is a community, made up of many hundreds of people.
Do I believe that boards that explicitly post leaked themes should be shut down? Yes. I do. Do I feel like websites that condone hacking should be shut down? Yes. I do. Do I feel that since that’ll never happen, I should begrudge them the ability to get support? No. I do not. Because I accept that for what it is - the team’s stance.
Frankly, it’s time you did the same.
Resorting to name-calling is uncalled for. Stating that I am "being thick" and "obstructionist" is totally unnecessary.
I do not know why you resort to these kinds of put-downs, but I take it that you like doing this.
(2019-08-20, 03:55 PM)Serpius Wrote: [ -> ]Resorting to name-calling is uncalled for. Stating that I am "being thick" and "obstructionist" is totally unnecessary.
I do not know why you resort to these kinds of put-downs, but I take it that you like doing this.
Thanks for playing; by completely ignoring the actual substance of my post, or the ones from actual team members before mine, you've proved what I thought; this isn't about the subject matter for you. It's about 'fake outrage'. It's about expecting that the CoC actually is a black and white interpretation of the rules of how
everyone should provide support; but again, this is not a business, you're not an employee. You're here in your free time and if you don't want to support someone who, to put it in your own words, causes:
Quote:loss of money that these honest software authors face every time that their piece of software is being used for FREE.
You don't have to. That's what the argument is, and to be brutally honest, it's the best part of MyBB as a community. The argument is
not whether or not the official policy should change, because it has no bearing whatsoever to you. I've said this at least three times now.
And with that, I've said what I have to say. Again, thanks for playing.