(2017-09-19, 10:19 PM)Lunorian Wrote: [ -> ]Even if you help like I have, ur still not allowed to provide constructive criticism, they'll ignore the fact you contribute because ur not an official dev.
When did you feel like we ignore your contributes? If you don't get any reply it doesn't mean the issue or PR is ignored, it's just we are busy doing something else but eventually we will reply and review them.
(2017-09-19, 10:31 PM)Shade Wrote: [ -> ] (2017-09-19, 10:19 PM)Lunorian Wrote: [ -> ]Even if you help like I have, ur still not allowed to provide constructive criticism, they'll ignore the fact you contribute because ur not an official dev.
When did you feel like we ignore your contributes? If you don't get any reply it doesn't mean the issue or PR is ignored, it's just we are busy doing something else but eventually we will reply and review them.
"they'll ignore the fact you contribute because ur not an official dev"
I mean the responses to these types of threads are always our developers are volunteer or you aren't contributing. The point of that was that unless you're an official developer, under this set of logic, you aren't allowed to complain.
I could care less about response times to my PRs if the MyBB Group truly managed to piss me off there are countless of other open source projects I can contribute to. I care about the MyBB Project a lot though so I try to help. However no one is allowed to constructively criticize, let's focus on how the project can be improved organization and management wise rather than who's fault it is.
(2017-09-20, 03:58 AM)Lunorian Wrote: [ -> ]"they'll ignore the fact you contribute because ur not an official dev"
I mean the responses to these types of threads are always our developers are volunteer or you aren't contributing. The point of that was that unless you're an official developer, under this set of logic, you aren't allowed to complain.
If you're a part of a community which is building a product for free, for the community, and you're complaining that other people aren't working hard enough in their spare time on a product that you get to use for free, you're going to find people are less likely to take into consideration your point of view.
(2017-09-20, 03:58 AM)Lunorian Wrote: [ -> ]However no one is allowed to constructively criticize, let's focus on how the project can be improved organization and management wise rather than who's fault it is.
People are free to provide criticism, but that doesn't mean their criticism is justified. The team understands the project far better than anyone else. Your recommendation was "don't test the code, you should be able to spot errors just be reading it". Any competent developer would read that and laugh. That's the kind of thing which lowers the weight of your feedback.
Being loud doesn't make you right.
Constructive criticism is certainly allowed, but it doesn't mean we HAVE to follow what you say. We declined to stop testing code >60 posts ago. I'd point out that that was your principle argument: PR testing was slowing down releases. Now you're saying you don't mind about the time it takes to accept PRs?
Nevertheless, we do take community feedback into consideration. The community suggested opening up repositories many times, so we did that. The community suggested opening a discord channel instead of IRC, and we did that. Many of the features of MyBB incorporates are a result of community feedback. Team restructuring was also a result of community feedback. The aim towards more transparency was a result of the community feedback. Many of the things we do are a result of community suggestion and feedback.
(2017-09-20, 07:12 AM)Tom K. Wrote: [ -> ]Constructive criticism is certainly allowed, but it doesn't mean we HAVE to follow what you say. We declined to stop testing code >60 posts ago. I'd point out that that was your principle argument: PR testing was slowing down releases. Now you're saying you don't mind about the time it takes to accept PRs?
Nevertheless, we do take community feedback into consideration. The community suggested opening up repositories many times, so we did that. The community suggested opening a discord channel instead of IRC, and we did that. Many of the features of MyBB incorporates are a result of community feedback. Team restructuring was also a result of community feedback. The aim towards more transparency was a result of the community feedback. Many of the things we do are a result of community suggestion and feedback.
Quote:I could care less about response times to my PRs if the MyBB Group truly managed to piss me off there are countless of other open source projects I can contribute to
Specifically I was saying my compliant about users who contribute isn't about response times. That's not the focus of this discussion. Specifically testing tiny little changes that won't cause a problem - rigorously testing a PR that let's say just adds HTMLSpecialChars to a previous PR to avoid an XSS Vuln before it hits production. The effect is obvious. That slows down development. However your response time to my PRs isn't the issue. There are other open source projects I also contribute who respond within hours, often minutes - if I want to quickly write a ton of code I'd go to one of them. I have a vested interest in helping the MyBB Group since my forum is powered by MyBB, one of the primary frustration right now is the response that "our developers are volunteer" - it doesn't address the problem at hand, rather it says why the problem exists and that we don't plan to do anything about it.
(2017-09-20, 12:51 PM)Lunorian Wrote: [ -> ]Specifically I was saying my compliant about users who contribute isn't about response times. That's not the focus of this discussion. Specifically testing tiny little changes that won't cause a problem - rigorously testing a PR that let's say just adds HTMLSpecialChars to a previous PR to avoid an XSS Vuln before it hits production. The effect is obvious. That slows down development. However your response time to my PRs isn't the issue. There are other open source projects I also contribute who respond within hours, often minutes - if I want to quickly write a ton of code I'd go to one of them. I have a vested interest in helping the MyBB Group since my forum is powered by MyBB, one of the primary frustration right now is the response that "our developers are volunteer" - it doesn't address the problem at hand, rather it says why the problem exists and that we don't plan to do anything about it.
Indeed, time dedicated to review PRs is spent relatively to their complexity. Unfortunately, sometimes what may looks simple to you is not to the eyes of others and have to be tested more intensively than you would think.
(2017-09-20, 01:17 PM)Shade Wrote: [ -> ] (2017-09-20, 12:51 PM)Lunorian Wrote: [ -> ]Specifically I was saying my compliant about users who contribute isn't about response times. That's not the focus of this discussion. Specifically testing tiny little changes that won't cause a problem - rigorously testing a PR that let's say just adds HTMLSpecialChars to a previous PR to avoid an XSS Vuln before it hits production. The effect is obvious. That slows down development. However your response time to my PRs isn't the issue. There are other open source projects I also contribute who respond within hours, often minutes - if I want to quickly write a ton of code I'd go to one of them. I have a vested interest in helping the MyBB Group since my forum is powered by MyBB, one of the primary frustration right now is the response that "our developers are volunteer" - it doesn't address the problem at hand, rather it says why the problem exists and that we don't plan to do anything about it.
Indeed, time dedicated to review PRs is spent relatively to their complexity. Unfortunately, sometimes what may looks simple to you is not to the eyes of others and have to be tested more intensively than you would think.
I already gave up on requesting you guys do faster testing and don't test obviously correct code, do what you want there. This is now about the "we're just volunteers" thing when people provide criticism.
(2017-09-20, 06:51 PM)Lunorian Wrote: [ -> ]I already gave up on requesting you guys do faster testing and don't test obviously correct code, do what you want there. This is now about the "we're just volunteers" thing when people provide criticism.
What would you expect? I accept criticism on what I do, but absolutely not on when I should do something. Speaking about myself, who are you to request me to do something faster when I do what I can in my spare time? I study from 4 to 6 hours a day and other good 5 hours are spent working in a university hospital; I play ice hockey in the evening; and yet you come here and ask me to speed up my workflow? This is just unfair. This isn't a job, it's something I should enjoy doing when I feel like I have some time.
Oh, and there are people out there who think differently from you and can spot issues in your "obviously correct code" in a minute. Your last PR has been barely tested and yet you have been asked to edit it multiple times: I can't cite any better example. That's why we must test code, even patches coming from us are tested by other developers because what looks good to you doesn't mean it's good to others.
(2017-09-20, 08:22 PM)Shade Wrote: [ -> ] (2017-09-20, 06:51 PM)Lunorian Wrote: [ -> ]I already gave up on requesting you guys do faster testing and don't test obviously correct code, do what you want there. This is now about the "we're just volunteers" thing when people provide criticism.
What would you expect? I accept criticism on what I do, but absolutely not on when I should do something. Speaking about myself, who are you to request me to do something faster when I do what I can in my spare time? I study from 4 to 6 hours a day and other good 5 hours are spent working in a university hospital; I play ice hockey in the evening; and yet you come here and ask me to speed up my workflow? This is just unfair. This isn't a job, it's something I should enjoy doing when I feel like I have some time.
Oh, and there are people out there who think differently from you and can spot issues in your "obviously correct code" in a minute. Your last PR has been barely tested and yet you have been asked to edit it multiple times: I can't cite any better example. That's why we must test code, even patches coming from us are tested by other developers because what looks good to you doesn't mean it's good to others.
Remember what user devs said to former developer Nathan
Quote:Thats exactly what drives people away. Answers like the one above and general atitude of devs towards regular members. Its better you are out of team.....
That's what the community is concerned about. Developer Nathan who quit since he couldn't handle complaints,
Quote:The thread has reminded me why I left the team and why I won't be rejoining. The community is cancer. That's what drives people away. I feel stressed just thinking about it. If you want progress, be that progress. If you're going to come here to say the team is bad, the code is bad, the project is bad, everything is bad, apart from the way you're treating the people who volunteer their time and effort to maintain this project while dealing with your orange and everything else they're going through in life, eggplant off. /thread
said be that progress.
I saw an issue in MyBB, what did I do? I made a PR and fixed it. I could just create GitHub issues all day and let it be someone else's problem, but rather I took initiative and fixed it. The attitude of MyBB's dev team to normal members though is toxic to
NORMAL PEOPLE who want to help either thru feedback or even developers willing to create PRs on GitHub and
DO FREE FOR THE MYBB GROUP if you guys aren't careful the community support you guys have could one day go away and it'll just be a few devs working on MyBB, progress will be done even slower, and people will be forced to switch to other forum software. Now is the time to fix these community issues, not after your community starts to disappear.
Think of MyBB 1.8 as a powder keg. Every little thing might push it over the edge and make it explode.
That's what happens when you write code for it. When you live on a minefield, it makes sense when people are a little sceptical of changes, the bar is slightly lower over at 2.0, but people expect things to break there, as it's pre-alpha.
Also, if there's a problem with the fix and it gets merged, then someone else will have to fix it. 1.8 is spaghetti code, so it's hard to tell if one thing won't break another down the line. I'm not going to use pretty terms like an ageing code-base, it is literally spaghetti code.
If I had to guess, a team of hobbyists who didn't know what they were doing slapped it together.
I did want to write code to improve 1.8, but there are potential problems with the upgrader where the page might time out before it manages to process all the changes I need it to apply forcing me to step back from pushing every change I'd like to get in there. Sad, but true.
Also, 1.8 is worse than you think. There's an entire class of potential security exploits which might be impossible to fix without breaking compatibility with old versions of PHP and MySQL. I'm hoping that asides from a fairly benign security exploit I encountered, that there isn't anything really nasty in there.
And believe me when I say that unit tests won't catch those
Also, MyBB 1.8 is spaghetti code. You can't unit test spaghetti code. Even a god can't do that.