MyBB Community Forums

(2012-12-31, 05:51 AM)brad-t Wrote: [ -> ]It's part of their TOS, so they have the right to do that. I addressed that pretty clearly in my previous post, didn't I?

You did not address my first paragraph;

The database is not yours - It's someone else's. Your point? You have no right to force them to purge your account information before they sell your account information, or for that matter, get them to purge your information at all.

Does an artist not own the rights to their art when it's hosted in an art gallery? Or, for a web-friendly analogy, does Flickr gain unlimited rights to photographs posted on its service? (HINT: they don't.)

Just because you agree to host or display someone else's content does not mean you automatically gain unlimited rights to it. You gain whichever rights the content creator grants to you. You don't even understand the basics of the conversation occurring here.

I wish you would adhere to your user title a little more aggressively.

(2012-12-31, 05:57 AM)brad-t Wrote: [ -> ]I wish you would adhere to your user title a little more aggressively.

I do need to change that, actually.

The moral is to be careful precisely what information you provide on public forums - And what you post.

(2012-12-31, 06:00 AM)Ben Cousins Wrote: [ -> ]I'm wrong about this but I'm totally going to ignore that.

Nice. Thanks.

So, this thread has totally gone in a different direction than expected, and it's my fault for not being more specific.

Simply put: I don't think we should be selling user data for the purpose of incorporating it into different sites. Full-stop. When Facebook bought Instagram, Instagram accounts remained Instagram accounts. Facebook just still operates it. (And of course, Instagram users can delete their content from the service at any time. But a forum's dynamic is totally different.)

You can slip this into your TOS, sure. But I think the sale of a site to new ownership and the sale of site users and content to a community that may or may not align with the user's interests – and that is NOT your call to make – is a bridge that shouldn't be crossed.

Can you include this in your TOS? Sure, you can include all kinds of shady stuff in your TOS. Should you? I don't think you should, but it's not my call to make.

My suggestion? If you're going to do things like grant yourself unlimited license to user submitted content, make that very clear. DON'T bury it under heaps of legalese. If users are made aware of what they're getting into, it's going to be hard for them to complain later on.

I don't like the idea of a user with thousands of posts purging their accounts, so I'm going to think carefully about how I treat user content licensing in the future. But I also don't like the thought of owning content that's been submitted to my site. So I don't know where I'll go from here. But thanks labrocca and pavemen for bringing some great perspective from "the other side."

(2012-12-31, 05:01 AM)Lo. Wrote: [ -> ]

(2012-12-31, 04:36 AM)brad-t Wrote: [ -> ]

(2012-12-31, 02:54 AM)Lo. Wrote: [ -> ]This annoys me for two reasons.

Let's take the internet out of this, and apply it to real life.

You are talking with a group of 10-12 friends in a gym, and then you have a clash with what your groups social leader. Are you going to then tell them "I WANT YOU ALL TO ERASE EVERY MEMORY THAT WE EVER HAD TOGETHER? OR I'LL CALL THE COPS"

Huh. Sounds kinda silly. Really silly. What you contributed to your community stays with them for as long as it's alive. When it dies, you will die with it.

I haven't had time to write anything in this thread since there's a lot of good content from everyone that I'm still absorbing, but I'd just like to say that this analogy is really stupid.

That's what I like to do when I see people make laws and ethics on the internet. Apply it to real life. Past posts and and stuff are memories. You can't take them back, or forcefully erase them.

Yes you can, you cannot delete memories. But a string in the database can be deleted with one button. There is no button for real life and comparing it to real life is incredibly stupid. If you want to compare it to anything it would be to compare it with real corporations.
Yes some sell your data but the once that do at least make clear they are doing it. And if they do not and trade your personal data they get dragged into court.

Instead if you want to use your silly real life comparison, its forcing group A to be in the same cage as group B and be forced to be friends. And to share all their private stories. While you told group A that they would never have to talk with group B. I think i am then correct in saying those people would really dislike you for forcing them to do something. Also they would all refuse to do something like that.

Now apply that to this situation and i am sure many users will be happy with you ignoring the default tos and just doing things behind their back.

Quote:User should be able to at any moment with warranted reasons be able to remove all the content/information placed on a site (admin approved).

1. User account is stolen. Account thief just had all that content removed. Real user is pissed off years of material are lost. Imagine your Google account is erased.

2. A user posts something illegal like a warez link or maybe a video of a crime they committed. Now you've just erased evidence and possibly hindered a prosecution.

Quote:User should always be able to delete an account to a blank account at any moment they wish.

No they should not. And most sites don't allow that.

Quote:I do not see myself owning the content placed on my site.

Owning the content isn't the right phrase. When the content is published on your service you're granted certain rights.

Quote:Its their content they at any time should be able to do with it what they wish.

Don't agree. Would you say a user has a right to post whatever they want? Ultimately it's your service and you have control of that service. You are not legally and imho morally obligated to allow users to delete that content.

Quote:A users personal information is his/her information if for what ever reason they feel the need to delete their account to a blank account which contains no user information not even the old username

That's a very dangerous policy. It's like saying that if I want into a bank and it video recorded me that I can demand they remove me from the video. That's the data the bank collected in the normal course of business and it's part of their security. The private data I collect is for site and member security. I would not allow it to be deleted upon request.

Your arguments appear to be based on "it's the users content"...

Quote:The agreement is their to protect a user

Actually no it's not. It's there to protect the site/company. What it does is spell out what rights the site allows the user and what rights the site reserves for itself.

Quote:Let's take the internet out of this, and apply it to real life.

You are talking with a group of 10-12 friends in a gym, and then you have a clash with what your groups social leader. Are you going to then tell them "I WANT YOU ALL TO ERASE EVERY MEMORY THAT WE EVER HAD TOGETHER? OR I'LL CALL THE COPS"

Exactly my point. Imagine you go to Burger King, get a whopper, pay with your CC. Then a week later you require them to remove your signed slip and any evidence you were there. That any possily fingerprints left on tables or in the bathroom be erased. Just ludicrous.

Users voluntarily sign up on websites. And while you might make some argument that the transfer of data to a 3rd party is unethical you can't say that a site owner is obligated to remove data simply because a user requests it.

Quote:Does an artist not own the rights to their art when it's hosted in an art gallery?

Are you talking about museum or a sales gallery? I'll guess you mean a sales gallery. During the time the art is being sold the gallery would likely advertise using the artists name. Even after the art is sold or removed the gallery might still use the artists name as a former client. If you mean a museum similar thing apply with the artwork where the museum would use images of the art in promotional material.

Quote:Does an artist not own the rights to their art when it's hosted in an art gallery?

Yes but he's granted the gallery certain rights to the art. The short answer.

Quote:Simply put: I don't think we should be selling user data for the purpose of incorporating it into different sites.

So we should get rid of the merge system? That's a big purpose for the project. It's a merge system..not a convert system.

Quote:My suggestion? If you're going to do things like grant yourself unlimited license to user submitted content, make that very clear. DON'T bury it under heaps of legalese. If users are made aware of what they're getting into, it's going to be hard for them to complain later on.

I'd like to go back to an earlier statement I made:

Quote:...my thought was that no one reads it so why bother to change it

So who really gives a crap?

Exactly ^

Anori, what would you do if a user on your forum was hacked and you weren't aware, he comes to you and says can you delete my account completely leaving no trace of me at all, do you just delete it? Furthermore, if you know he has posted or acted illegally online and there might be tiny bits of evidence within some of his posts, will you still delete his account if he asked?

Refusing to delete an account off of YOUR website is not unethical at all, I don't understand how anyone can even begin to argue that. A user just last week demanded to have his account deleted as he was scared of being doxed, I said I don't delete accounts but I will change his email used to a random one, remove any other unnecessary information and change his username if he wants. He said "Thank you, that will be perfect". Was I unethical?

As for the merging discussion, are some of you really considering it the sale of personal information? I don't know anyone who purchases forum databases to merge into his/her forum because they want personal information of the new merged users. You do it for the content, the expansion, nothing fishy goes on and it's not unethical to partake in at all. None of you seem to complain when major companies like Ebay and PayPal do it, so why complain when small online forums do it?

(2012-12-31, 11:42 AM)Crayo Wrote: [ -> ]why complain when small online forums do it?

People have no life, so they feel they can.

(2012-12-31, 10:59 AM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:User should be able to at any moment with warranted reasons be able to remove all the content/information placed on a site (admin approved).

1. User account is stolen. Account thief just had all that content removed. Real user is pissed off years of material are lost. Imagine your Google account is erased.

2. A user posts something illegal like a warez link or maybe a video of a crime they committed. Now you've just erased evidence and possibly hindered a prosecution.

You could make the stuff all private (but when you sell/trade the data any users should be allowed to remove their data. Since the current tos does not allow an admin to do this!)

Quote:

Quote:A users personal information is his/her information if for what ever reason they feel the need to delete their account to a blank account which contains no user information not even the old username

That's a very dangerous policy. It's like saying that if I want into a bank and it video recorded me that I can demand they remove me from the video. That's the data the bank collected in the normal course of business and it's part of their security. The private data I collect is for site and member security. I would not allow it to be deleted upon request.

There is a difference though the bank will not share that recording with anybody except the authority (which does not fall under a third party if they required it for legal reasons). While site owners just happily sell it to anybody who bids.

Quote:Your arguments appear to be based on "it's the users content"...

Quote:The agreement is their to protect a user

Actually no it's not. It's there to protect the site/company. What it does is spell out what rights the site allows the user and what rights the site reserves for itself.

Jup it tells what rights the user has and what rights the site does not. One of those rights in the current TOS clearly states that their information will never be sold to third parties.. yet that is ignored??

Quote:

Quote:My suggestion? If you're going to do things like grant yourself unlimited license to user submitted content, make that very clear. DON'T bury it under heaps of legalese. If users are made aware of what they're getting into, it's going to be hard for them to complain later on.

I'd like to go back to an earlier statement I made:

Quote:...my thought was that no one reads it so why bother to change it

So who really gives a crap?

I dont even know why i bother trying to argue with this anymore.. but the last statement of you covers my exact reasoning why we need very strict rules.

You pretty much say exactly what i wanted to hear: Who gives a crap what i do with somebody's information its on my site i dictate what i do with it. Sums it up pretty much. Even if the default tos (which i know does not apply probably to your site anymore) states these activities will not be done.
What does it mean that you lie to a user then?

Also i really like the argument about the hacked user, because that user is important while a user with a good solid reasoning for wishing his/her account deleted is not important? Double standards i call that in my book double standards that benefit the other person best.

You're paranoid anori. That or you just enjoy overreacting. If you're as against this as you seem then you should get your crayons out, make a sign, and walk down the street protesting against the major companies. Not spending hours writing ridiculously long posts on a MyBB community forum protesting against small forums merging databases.