(2012-12-30, 09:00 PM)Crayo Wrote: [ -> ]Why would you attach your real name to a forum anyway? If you do such a thing you should get some common sense and realize that you're at risk as soon as you reveal that type of information. If you're that paranoid, sign up to forums with a disposable email. No one has posted any legitimate decent reasons why refusing to delete an account or selling your forum is unethical, but reasons for refusing to delete accounts have all been posted.
As I said earlier, people are taking this way too far. If you're paranoid then be more careful.
Well lets pretend everybody lives in the EU for a moment. Their is a law that is going to happen in an extended version called:
"The right to be forgotten"
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/24/techno...il1=y&_r=0
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ciocentral/2...l-privacy/
Some important quotes:
Quote:To strengthen the ‘right to be forgotten’ in the online environment, the right to erasure should also be extended in such a way that any publicly available copies or replications in websites and search engines should also be deleted by the controller who has made the information public.
with one limitation which forums do never apply for:
Quote:However, the further retention of the data should be allowed where it is necessary for historical, statistical and scientific research purposes, for exercising the right of freedom of expression, when required by law, or where there is a reason to restrict the processing of the data instead of erasing them.
This all has nothing to do with paranoia, but the simple fact that things like this together with the EU cookie law (which is already in affect) will happen. And that currently admins do not even have the right to do this. And they just do, the exact reason why the above law is being made.
And besides that if admins want it now they have to adjust their tos (something with the new law would be instantly made not binding since a tos does not over rule a law).
Anyways i guess i simply fully disagree with the notion that SEO ranking apparently is more important then the user. Might just be me.. apparently it is.
Are you against it because it's against the law or for ethical reasons? I don't need to see any law related stuff posted to try and persuade my opinion, I don't give a damn about any of that. I want to know what ethical reasons you have to be against this, not what copy & paste laws you find through Googling.
(2012-12-31, 12:33 AM)Crayo Wrote: [ -> ]Are you against it because it's against the law or for other ethical reasons? I don't want any law crap posted to try and persuade my opinion, I don't give a damn about any of that, but from what you have posted a simple ToS change fixes all those "issues". I want to know what ethical reasons you have to be against this, not what copy & paste laws you find through Googling.
Things they should be able to do:
- User should be able to at any moment with warranted reasons be able to remove all the content/information placed on a site (admin approved).
- User should always be able to delete an account to a blank account at any moment they wish.
Reasons Ethical:
- I do not see myself owning the content placed on my site. Its their content they at any time should be able to do with it what they wish. Even if that means just making the content invisible (The reason i say invisible is because of legal terms that data needs to be kept for a certain period of time. And as long as the admin can see it its fine) to other users (or in case of a merge/sell of a database a user should be able to terminate his/her account since in the default TOS they did not agree to their data being sold)
- A users personal information is his/her information if for what ever reason they feel the need to delete their account to a blank account which contains no user information not even the old username (again selling your database/merging it should provide the option for a total deletion. Simply put current TOS does not allow it and in the future it wont be allowed in Europe at all) they should be able to do this.
- Besides these two points my ethical reasoning is that since the current agreement is broken by a rather large part of Admins what does this mean for the user? You could just put in the agreement: "All your info belongs to us, to do with what we want whenever we want to. ". Though i doubt any user is going to be that happy with such a line.
- The agreement is their to protect a user (while not legally binding until tested in court). Is it then to much to ask to atleast obey by those terms? I mean if every admin can just go about ignoring their own TOS what would this mean for the user? I could create a fake site, collect usernames/email addresses and sell it. While the TOS clearly states i would not do such a thing.
I do not mind it if a site changes their default TOS (before ever any users had signed up) but i do have a huge issue with the fact that sites just think they can do what ever they wish with there user information. Without notifying a user that there is a chance their personal data will be used for personal gain by the admin.
Also your line about TOS changing is not as easy as it sounds. The TOS in its current form cannot be changed, unless its re-agreed to by all the users. An opt-out would work fine for this but you would have to notify all your users (pref. by mail) that you have changed the TOS. And if they do not agree they have then the option to completely delete their account. The reason this is needed is for the simple fact the current agreement does not contain the information that the TOS can be changed at any moment as see fit.
The current default agreement:
Quote:Whilst we attempt to edit or remove any messages containing inappropriate, sexually orientated, abusive, hateful, slanderous, or threatening material that could be considered invasive of a persons privacy, or which otherwise violate any kind of law, it is impossible for us to review every message posted on this discussion system. For this reason you acknowledge that all messages posted on this discussion system express the views and opinions of the original message author and not necessarily the views of this bulletin board. Therefore we take no responsibility and cannot be held liable for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy and completeness of every message.
By registering on this discussion system you agree that you will not post any material which is knowingly false, inaccurate, abusive, hateful, harassing, sexually orientated, threatening or invasive of a person's privacy, or any other material which may violate any applicable laws.
Failure to comply with these rules may result in the termination of your account, account suspension, or permanent ban of access to these forums. Your IP Address is recorded with each post you make on this discussion system and is retrievable by the forum staff if need-be. You agree that we have the ability and right to remove, edit, or lock any account or message at any time should it be seen fit. You also agree that any information you enter on this discussion system is stored in a database, and that "cookies" are stored on your computer to save your login information.
Any information you provide on these forums will not be disclosed to any third party without your complete consent, although the staff cannot be held liable for any hacking attempt in which your data is compromised.
By continuing with the sign up process you agree to the above rules and any others that the Administrator specifies.
Two things highlighted; if the second part does cover the holes in the current TOS fine but most dont bother putting up additional rules/information.
Also rules in the second part cannot break the rules in the first part (would be rather counter productive dont you think?)
Lastly their is at no point in this agreement stated something as simple as:
Quote:This agreement is subject to change without notice, at any time time in our sole discretion
Anyways this is offtopic that last part. To answer your question no i dont think any site is doing something ethical when they opt to sell their users personal data to a third party's for personal gain. Besides this its in my opinion also unethical that you force a user into something they never expected to happen. And also generally selling all their information to a third party happens so quickly that no user will see it happening, and is suddenly forced to a new site. With new rules and no idea what is done with his/her personal information.
Will it be something that can be prevented easily? No will there come rules in certain parts of the world disallowing such practice? Yes
Example of the first step is the cookie law in europe. Yes its annoying but rather have something like that then the current field were almost anything goes.
Ah well this is my opinion about it will leave it at that. If we all still disagree then lets just say we agree to fully disagree.
PS: Sorry for spelling mistakes didn't bother to read through it / correct them.
This annoys me for two reasons.
Let's take the internet out of this, and apply it to real life.
You are talking with a group of 10-12 friends in a gym, and then you have a clash with what your groups social leader. Are you going to then tell them "I WANT YOU ALL TO ERASE EVERY MEMORY THAT WE EVER HAD TOGETHER? OR I'LL CALL THE COPS"
Huh. Sounds kinda silly. Really silly. What you contributed to your community stays with them for as long as it's alive. When it dies, you will die with it.
(2012-12-31, 02:54 AM)Lo. Wrote: [ -> ]This annoys me for two reasons.
Let's take the internet out of this, and apply it to real life.
You are talking with a group of 10-12 friends in a gym, and then you have a clash with what your groups social leader. Are you going to then tell them "I WANT YOU ALL TO ERASE EVERY MEMORY THAT WE EVER HAD TOGETHER? OR I'LL CALL THE COPS"
Huh. Sounds kinda silly. Really silly. What you contributed to your community stays with them for as long as it's alive. When it dies, you will die with it.
I haven't had time to write anything in this thread since there's a lot of good content from everyone that I'm still absorbing, but I'd just like to say that this analogy is
really stupid.
(2012-12-31, 04:36 AM)brad-t Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-12-31, 02:54 AM)Lo. Wrote: [ -> ]This annoys me for two reasons.
Let's take the internet out of this, and apply it to real life.
You are talking with a group of 10-12 friends in a gym, and then you have a clash with what your groups social leader. Are you going to then tell them "I WANT YOU ALL TO ERASE EVERY MEMORY THAT WE EVER HAD TOGETHER? OR I'LL CALL THE COPS"
Huh. Sounds kinda silly. Really silly. What you contributed to your community stays with them for as long as it's alive. When it dies, you will die with it.
I haven't had time to write anything in this thread since there's a lot of good content from everyone that I'm still absorbing, but I'd just like to say that this analogy is really stupid.
That's what I like to do when I see people make laws and ethics on the internet. Apply it to real life. Past posts and and stuff are memories. You can't take them back, or forcefully erase them.
(2012-12-31, 04:36 AM)brad-t Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-12-31, 02:54 AM)Lo. Wrote: [ -> ]This annoys me for two reasons.
Let's take the internet out of this, and apply it to real life.
You are talking with a group of 10-12 friends in a gym, and then you have a clash with what your groups social leader. Are you going to then tell them "I WANT YOU ALL TO ERASE EVERY MEMORY THAT WE EVER HAD TOGETHER? OR I'LL CALL THE COPS"
Huh. Sounds kinda silly. Really silly. What you contributed to your community stays with them for as long as it's alive. When it dies, you will die with it.
I haven't had time to write anything in this thread since there's a lot of good content from everyone that I'm still absorbing, but I'd just like to say that this analogy is really stupid.
Lo. is correct, however.
That analogy makes sense.
No it doesn't. Memories are not your property – they're someone else's. You don't have any rights to them. However, if a TOS doesn't expressly give you license to do whatever you want with a user's submitted content, it's still the user's content to do with as they please.
A more apt comparison would be like asking to erase someone's memories of your posts ... which nobody would ever do, because it's stupid. You also couldn't realistically ask to have quotes of your content removed, since it was being utilized under fair use at the time of posting. However, posts that are made BY YOU are owned BY YOU (unless you've signed that right away under the TOS, as many admins in this thread are instructing to do).
Furthermore, and finally, the internet is an aspect of real life. We're not having a discussion through a rift into another dimension, here. So don't treat it as a separate issue.
Can we please leave the half-baked analogies out of this thread and stick to reality? Thanks.
(2012-12-31, 05:37 AM)brad-t Wrote: [ -> ]No it doesn't. Memories are not your property – they're someone else's.
The database is not yours - It's someone else's. Your point? You have no right to force them to purge your account information before they sell your account information, or for that matter, get them to purge your information at all.
Many *many* communities I am a part of say exactly the same thing. People will *not* delete your posts, or account data, and you're told to deal with it.
Whirlpool:
http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/wp_faq#wp_deleteaccount
Wrong Planet:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/tos.txt
RailPage Australia:
http://www.railpage.com.au/static-tos.htm
They're the 3 main ones.
It's part of their TOS, so they have the right to do that. I addressed that pretty clearly in my previous post, didn't I?