(2012-12-31, 10:17 PM)Tom K. Wrote: [ -> ]Pavemen, I'm fairly sure Banks are required to retain account information for taxation and fraud investigation purposes. That is a poor analogy for forums 
I was replying to a previous comment about banks
(2013-01-01, 12:38 AM)Yumi Wrote: [ -> ]I honestly don't bother reading the posts here. We know that any arguments about the ToS or laws is just trash anyway, so we'll go onto ideals.
Ethically, whilst I think that users have some sort of ownership over the stuff they post, I don't believe they have ownership or rights over the copy that they decided to make available to the world. Say user A has made a long and detailed post on forum B and decides to post it on a competing forum C, I believe they should have the right to do so (if the post becomes the property of forum B's owner, they wouldn't be able to do this).
However, if they've been banned from forum B, user A cannot demand it be removed from B. User A can continue posting it on other forums, such as forum D and E, but they don't have the right to remove the copy from B.
To use an analogy, say you write and publish a book. You have rights to republish it, modify it etc and perhaps even recall it to a certain degree. However, once someone has bought a copy of your book, you don't have the right to obtain it back from them - it's their property now. You may be able to seek the buyer and make an offer to take back the book, but the buyer is not obliged to agree. On the other hand, the buyer does not have the right to make and sell copies of your book (but they can rip out pages, scribble on the side etc if they wish) - you have no right to take what they've legally obtained.
Similarly, when someone makes a post on a forum, they implicitly give the right to host the posting to the forum's owner. The forum owner can modify this posted copy, delete it or retain it against the user's will, all whilst not having full rights over the posting.
^^this, with the exception that I wont stop you from taking your book back, but I am not going to just hand it to you. you need to work for it (delete your own posts and change your own user details)
(2012-12-28, 05:04 AM)brad-t Wrote: [ -> ]We see this often in the forum world, where one site buys the database of another site and merges it together. This has got to stop. When a user signs up for your site, they are signing up for your site – they never gave you permission to sell their data (unless you baked that into the terms and conditions, and in the unlikely event that you did, you're just a jerk).
STOP IT. IT SUCKS. IT'S SHADY. IT SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTABLE.
I have to say I agree with you Brad.
I mean when a guest comes to one forum and considers joining, they have a free will to join or not to join, it is their choice. When a forum database is merged into another forum, it completely bypasses a member's right to join or not join. This is a big reason why I chose not to buy out forums. If I do buy out a forum, all I buy it for is the domain to redirect to a thread on my forum explaining I have acquired the forum and former members can join if they want to.
I have been victim of being merged onto another forum and it does suck. I had joined an admin forum, and then it got bought out and they merged it into a general forum. How does that make any sense?! But I had no other choice since they opted me out from having a choice.
So I totally agree with you Brad
Great post!
(2013-01-02, 02:36 AM)Shawn Gossman Wrote: [ -> ]I have been victim of being merged onto another forum and it does suck. I had joined an admin forum, and then it got bought out and they merged it into a general forum. How does that make any sense?! But I had no other choice since they opted me out from having a choice.
And what horrific experience did you suffer as a consequence of being forcefully merged into another community?
(2013-01-03, 08:12 PM)Crayo Wrote: [ -> ]And what horrific experience did you suffer as a consequence of being forcefully merged into another community?
One does not necessarily suffer from warrantless wiretapping, but that doesn't make it OK. I don't think we need to cause pain to do something we shouldn't do.
(2013-01-03, 09:02 PM)brad-t Wrote: [ -> ] (2013-01-03, 08:12 PM)Crayo Wrote: [ -> ]And what horrific experience did you suffer as a consequence of being forcefully merged into another community?
One does not necessarily suffer from warrantless wiretapping, but that doesn't make it OK. I don't think we need to cause pain to do something we shouldn't do.
Throughout this thread I've been seeking a reason as to why it's unethical at all. Where as I have seen plenty of reasons why it's not unethical to merge forums (with a notice before doing it ofc) and how it's not unethical to refuse to delete accounts. It's fun to debate regardless.
I think we can all agree nothing bad happens to you as a result of a forum merge though right?
you know, forums merging and sharing the user account info between them is such a tiny issue. the most they have from you is one of your email addressed and the IP at the time you accessed the site.
email is disposable so get over it. your private details such as phone number, address, full name, etc are more of a concern (or should be) and those are bought and sold all day every day by mass marketing folks. Its a lot harder to change your address and phone number than it is your email address, and you can sign up with disposable emails to begin with, not something you can do with your address or phone without buying a box at a mail service or a disposable phone.
So does it really matter/? If you don't want your private info getting out, stop posting it on the internet.
It's not about private info or actual harm – when a forum is merged, it's essentially someone signing up for another website on my behalf, without my consent. I don't think this is something community managers should be getting into. That's all.
(2013-01-04, 01:37 AM)brad-t Wrote: [ -> ]It's not about private info or actual harm – when a forum is merged, it's essentially someone signing up for another website on my behalf, without my consent. I don't think this is something community managers should be getting into. That's all.
If you sold them the DB, then you've given them your consent.
Quote:One does not necessarily suffer from warrantless wiretapping
If you're arrested and convicted based on that then it's harmful.
Let me know when a user is arrested after a merge.
Quote:I don't think we need to cause pain to do something we shouldn't do.
Isn't that actually the litmus test for something we shouldn't do?
Quote:Throughout this thread I've been seeking a reason as to why it's unethical at all.
I agree. All I've read so far is that it shouldn't be done and that it's wrong. Not a reason imho.
Quote:It's not about private info or actual harm – when a forum is merged, it's essentially someone signing up for another website on my behalf, without my consent. I don't think this is something community managers should be getting into. That's all.
Yes and that's your base argument. That it's without your consent so it shouldn't be done. Because it makes you unhappy or uneasy in some way. Yet you've not outlined any actual harmful consequences beyond your feelings being hurt. Sorry if that sounds a bit brutal but it's how I'm reading this.
So you're OK with it if I sign up for mailing lists on your behalf without your consent, yeah?