(2014-09-28, 07:12 PM)Euan T Wrote: [ -> ]This thread has kind of been a consulting session, but the choice in the end comes down to the dev team. We're the ones who'll likely end up doing most of the work. We're always happy to listen to suggestions and arguments though (so long as they're civil 
).
I mean more two-sided debate, now it is more like monologues - people say something, you listen and later announcing "we have chosen framework X".
What is your choice at the moment and why?
At the moment, the choice is Laravel. It is actively developed, follows current standards, has a wide user base (and hence has a lot of support and packages available), it's easy to learn and use and it has all the features that we require (good ORM, good internatialosation support, good template get system built in).
I am very surprised that you have chosen Laravel. I've heard many complaints about coding standards (still not implemented PSR-1 and PSR-2), not very active community and poor documentation.
But above all, don't you afraid that this dynamically changing framework of such a short support will be a burden for such a long-term project which is MyBB 2.0?
Have you tried to call directly to the creators of these frameworks? I think that such a large project should draw their attention, and no one will talk better about the framework than his creations. Also I heard that the Yii developers plan to create a forum engine based on Yii - joining forces can not only facilitate the work and give additional experienced programmers to the team, but also ensure the impact on the further development of the framework.
(2014-09-28, 09:55 PM)rob006 Wrote: [ -> ]I am very surprised that you have chosen Laravel. I've heard many complaints about coding standards (still not implemented PSR-1 and PSR-2), not very active community and poor documentation.
But above all, don't you afraid that this dynamically changing framework of such a short support will be a burden for such a long-term project which is MyBB 2.0?
Have you tried to call directly to the creators of these frameworks? I think that such a large project should draw their attention, and no one will talk better about the framework than his creations. Also I heard that the Yii developers plan to create a forum engine based on Yii - joining forces can not only facilitate the work and give additional experienced programmers to the team, but also ensure the impact on the further development of the framework.
And how many people are involved in this forum software based on Yii? What's the chance of them actually going through with it? What expertise do they have?
I've found with open source projects that it's very easy to say that you plan to do something, but then things get in the way, people get too busy, etc.
As far as things like PSR-1 are concerned, does anyone really care? Let's not nitpick over those details. At the end of the day, what matter is that MyBB 2.0 is created with a powerful framework which allows greater flexibility for everyone (plugin developers get a better foundation to work with, forum developers are assisted by a framework, admins benefit from the improvements done by both).
Are you going to throw away a solid framework, just since it doesn't fit your OCD perfectly? Is this PSR-1 going to make MyBB more performant? Is it going to enhance security? Is it going to make it more extendable? Is it going to make it significantly easier to maintain?
Things changing? Things change. You either adapt to these changes or you don't. Want to see an example of a software stuck in the past? Look at PhpBB. You mean things changing rapidly? From what I heard around these forums, it's largely stabilizing.
Laravel 5 follows PSR-4 and they've followed PSR-1 for as long as I remember. The only one they don't follow is PSR-2, which is quite controversial in itself.
(2014-09-28, 09:21 PM)Euan T Wrote: [ -> ]At the moment, the choice is Laravel. It is actively developed
As are YII, Zend and Symfony.
Quote:follows current standards
What standards does Laravel follow that other frameworks do not support? Composer, the de facto standard for packages for example is supported by YII and Laravel and Zend (with a little bit of work with Zend though).
Quote:has a wide user base (and hence has a lot of support and packages available)
Same with Zend and YII. Have a look at the YII extensions (even for 2.0 already) in comparison to Laravel.
And how is the user base measured? We got thousands of people here using MyBB but only a small percentage that does develop themes, plugins and give support.
YII for example got a live chat for support that has 30+ users online permanently (my experience).
Quote:it's easy to learn and use and it has all the features that we require (good ORM, good internatialosation support, good template get system built in).
As has YII. And the YII coding style appears more similar to MyBBs coding style to me then Laravel.
A public comparison of the frameworks with pros and cons of the frameworks for MyBB by the team would be nice for the community to follow.
In germany the Typo3 framework is spread a lot and Zend is here too. Beside that, agencies do use YII and Symfony here. I did not see Laravel used in my last 200 company projects - but that may be germany specific. I wonder if other huge web development companies rely on it.
(2014-09-28, 11:24 PM)Axareal Wrote: [ -> ]And how many people are involved in this forum software based on Yii?
Probably none. Now I can not even find the post with this information, but it was one of the core-developers of the framework, so I guess he's quite experienced. : P
But it does not matter - having in a team a framework core-developer may be killer-feature, so definitely worth checking out and ask around, both Yii and Laravel developers - it is much more important than fancy and shiny ORM syntax.
As for the PSR-1/2, I'm not a big fan of this, some things are great, some are just stupid, so in private projects I also do not follow blindly these guidelines. But the framework addressed to the community and used by thousands of projects are different - it has to follow the standards and this indicates a maturity framework and its creators, who put the good of the PHP community over their own preferences. Having in a project libraries/engines with different formatting styles can be a real pain - slows down the reading code, and makes almost impossible to use IDE's autoformatting. Coding standards are important if you are doing a large open source project.
What to change - you really are wrong. For large projects stabilization is really important, and appearance of a new framework version every six months can be a problem. Especially if you do not control the entire code, because it's users creates plugins and themes and they not always want to update their soft. Frequent changes in the framework can lead to fragmentation and make the creation and access to extensions will be more difficult, and it is probably one of the most important parts of MyBB.
@Euan T
You may be right, I did not check it precisely. But when I looked through the code I've seen even inconsistency in the strings concatenation, so I guess there is still a lot of catching up to do with this
(2014-09-29, 09:14 AM)Lennart Sauter Wrote: [ -> ]As has YII. And the YII coding style appears more similar to MyBBs coding style to me then Laravel.
I'm not sure how important following current MyBB coding style will be with MyBB 2 since its a complete rewrite and we can focus on a cleaner and easier styling of code anyway.
Yii 2 still isn't released, and they just barely released the RC for it. So they are making progress but they are not there. I'm pretty sure I argued with someone before that MyBB 1.8 would be released before Yii 2 was released, and I was right. The concept of it is several years old, and technology moves fast. There already seem to be new ideas that it will lack that Mybb 2 could benefit from. Laravel seems to be in the forefront of those ideas. So, to me it makes sense to use Laravel.
(2014-09-29, 06:50 PM)HolyPhoenix Wrote: [ -> ]Yii 2 still isn't released, and they just barely released the RC for it. So they are making progress but they are not there.
Laravel 5 is coming in november, with is probably later than stable version of Yii 2.
https://twitter.com/laravelphp/status/51...5553998848