Alright Tomm. Use CI and finish 2.0 by 2013.
Seriously though. Wouldn't the decision to use CI make the MyBB teams life a lot easier?
It's not that forum software needs to have an overly complex framework is it? Is Yii 2.0 expected to just make developing MyBB 2.0 super easy or something I'm missing here? I always read complaints about the poor documentation of Yii vs other popular frameworks. And it's incredibly scary to hear we're waiting for Yii 2.0 which has currently ZERO documentation.
While I see the intent is that 2.0 is years away and that team wants it to use latests standards and be cutting edge but isn't there a risk of getting too far ahead of the base?
It feels realistic that Yii 2.0 won't be out for 6+ months at the pace they're going. And they've been discussing and developing Yii 2.0 for about a year now with no updates or beta.
Quote:We are currently actively developing our next major version 2.0. Yii 2.0 will be full rebuilt on top of PHP 5.3.0+ and is aimed to become a state-of-the-art of the new generation of PHP framework.
It's that state-of-the-art and new generation comment that worries me greatly. We're not writing Facebook sites here. It's a fairly basic forum software with excellent extendability.
Will MyBB 2.0 really require such a cutting edge next-gen framework?
I find it funny that most of these Frameworks don't even build their own forums using their own.
Yii = IPB
CI = Expression Engine
Zend = PHPBB
kohana = Vanilla
Cake = No forum
Symfony = PHPBB
Prado = SMF
And I'm suppose to be convinced coding a forum is easier with a framework that none of them actually use themselves? To be really blunt...this fact angers me.
(2012-05-02, 01:48 AM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]And I'm suppose to be convinced coding a forum is easier with a framework that none of them actually use themselves? To be really blunt...this fact angers me.
I think that its a matter of priorities. By using an existing forum software they can focus on their own project
(2012-05-02, 02:21 AM)pavemen Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-05-02, 01:48 AM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]And I'm suppose to be convinced coding a forum is easier with a framework that none of them actually use themselves? To be really blunt...this fact angers me.
I think that its a matter of priorities. By using an existing forum software they can focus on their own project
But most appear to use it to build their front ends. And how hard is it to code a simple forum to showcase what your framework can do?
Imagine you run your MyBB plugin support site using VB. To me that's exactly what it feels like.
Imagine you go to McDonalds and you see the manager in the back eating Burger King.
If Frameworks make development so fast then how tough is to to make a login, some forum tables, thread tables, user tables? You don't have to bother with PMs or notifications. Just allow for users and threads. That's so damn basic yet none of these popular frameworks bothered to use their own system to do that. Really troubling imho.
And since they created the framework I would believe they are very proficient at using it.
(2012-05-02, 02:32 AM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-05-02, 02:21 AM)pavemen Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-05-02, 01:48 AM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ]And I'm suppose to be convinced coding a forum is easier with a framework that none of them actually use themselves? To be really blunt...this fact angers me.
I think that its a matter of priorities. By using an existing forum software they can focus on their own project
But most appear to use it to build their front ends. And how hard is it to code a simple forum to showcase what your framework can do?
Imagine you run your MyBB plugin support site using VB. To me that's exactly what it feels like.
Imagine you go to McDonalds and you see the manager in the back eating Burger King.
If Frameworks make development so fast then how tough is to to make a login, some forum tables, thread tables, user tables? You don't have to bother with PMs or notifications. Just allow for users and threads. That's so damn basic yet none of these popular frameworks bothered to use their own system to do that. Really troubling imho.
And since they created the framework I would believe they are very proficient at using it.
CI is owned by EllisLabs, which built EE out of CI, IIRC.
(2012-05-02, 04:33 AM)Josh H. Wrote: [ -> ]CI is owned by EllisLabs, which built EE out of CI, IIRC.
That I didn't know but it's funny since here I am making this point about CI and then how forums aren't built by their frameworks and CI just happens to be so. I'm liking CI more and more with every breathe.
Wonder what dev team is thinking right now.
Did I open a can of worms?
(2012-05-02, 05:08 AM)labrocca Wrote: [ -> ] (2012-05-02, 04:33 AM)Josh H. Wrote: [ -> ]CI is owned by EllisLabs, which built EE out of CI, IIRC.
That I didn't know but it's funny since here I am making this point about CI and then how forums aren't built by their frameworks and CI just happens to be so. I'm liking CI more and more with every breathe.
Wonder what dev team is thinking right now.
Did I open a can of worms?
We all learn something new every day
I like CI's syntax and no CLI setup. Just upload and change some config lines.
I too would really like to hear some in-depth reasoning from the devs. I am not saying they have to reason to choose X framework over Y (because they do), rather I would just like to see the developers' perspectives.
Yes, you totally opened a can of worms. But hey, it's a good one. As long as it's a healthy discussion, then it is certainly worth having.
I have yet to understand why a php framework has a CLI. It completely confused me why I have to "build" a php site from a command line.
Personally I was taken to CI by another Marshton (Audentio.com, great guy btw), at a time I was on the verge or learning 1 framework (custom) and writing another one, and I have never looked back.
I do have a good understanding of OOP and I am EXTREMELY comfortable with CI ... Heck Marshton alone managed to write a complete forum on his own no less using CI, basic features, but hell a fully functioning forum, on his own in a couple of weeks....
Link =>
http://www.audentio.com/community/forum/
Have a look it has a lot of good features, and I THINK they are working on making it even better, adding features...before someone asks it is custom for their use only...
Once again I do love CI but Tomm and Chris have some valid points for going ahead with their choices ...I'm too lazy to look for them again but yeah there was a lot of internal discussion regarding choosing a framework.
But I'm just saying ... 1 guy made that forum on his own ...MyBB with a lot of developers can do so much more...
(2012-05-02, 07:10 AM)Jitendra M Wrote: [ -> ]Personally I was taken to CI by another Marshton (Audentio.com, great guy btw), at a time I was on the verge or learning 1 framework (custom) and writing another one, and I have never looked back.
I do have a good understanding of OOP and I am EXTREMELY comfortable with CI ... Heck Marshton alone managed to write a complete forum on his own no less using CI, basic features, but hell a fully functioning forum, on his own in a couple of weeks....
Link => http://www.audentio.com/community/forum/
Have a look it has a lot of good features, and I THINK they are working on making it even better, adding features...before someone asks it is custom for their use only...
Once again I do love CI but Tomm and Chris have some valid points for going ahead with their choices ...I'm too lazy to look for them again but yeah there was a lot of internal discussion regarding choosing a framework.
But I'm just saying ... 1 guy made that forum on his own ...MyBB with a lot of developers can do so much more...
Yii or CI won't make much difference to developers as once they learn a particular framework, it would be easy to code on it.
But the real difference is for end users. A normal MyBB user will little knowledge in PHP will find CI much easier than Yii.
And MyBB's code has been noob friendly since the beginning. To maintain that strategy CI would be better than Yii.
Thanks for the input everyone; it is important to hear the concerns of the people who use MyBB and of course we'll discuss them as part of the development process.
Yes, I do have an idea of when Yii 2.x will be available. Chris and I share the concern that Yii 1.x just simply hasn't advanced enough but from what I've read and discussed with the developer at Yii I feel confident that their designs are good. They know where they have gone wrong and are fixing it - including documentation I presume.
I'll try and clear up some of the reasons why I believe we're waiting for Yii - or trying to find the right framework for 2.x.
PHP 5.2 is arguably the most popular (and available) PHP version; many shared hosts have yet to make the jump to 5.3 and even 5.4 is available now. While we are dedicated developers we don't have dedicated time to the project - we can't rewrite this software in 3 years time. We need a framework that is built for PHP 5.3/4; it needs to be future-proof and while Symfony and CI are excellent frameworks they aren't optimised for what will be used when MyBB 2.x is eventually released in (for argument's sake) 2 years time.
Whichever way you look at it any framework attempts to accomplish the same thing; features, performance, scalability, re-usable code. Once you master one framework it doesn't take long to pick up another.
There are bucket-loads of PHP frameworks cropping up from PHP 5.3 that easily beat CI in terms of performance and scalability (very important) and documentation; I would not be surprised if all the major frameworks undergo some sort of rewrite to take advantage of the bells and whistles added to PHP. If they don't, they will simply be overtaken by quicker and more powerful frameworks that have.
Symfony is feature-rich but can be complicated to learn and whatever method we take (either build our own framework out of components or gung-ho) it will take a massive amount of work to get us started. Where with CI we might be able to get a full version of 2.x together in a year it still hasn't been brought up to date (min. requires PHP 5.1) and performance lacks behind other frameworks (and could be a danger of a mid-cycle rewrite). With Yii it will be up to date, we get powerful features of both it and PHP and (probably, if 1.x is anything to go by) a quick, effective framework.
These are the things we are discussing at the moment; we have plenty of research, opinions and routes to walk if Yii 2 turns out to be a turkey.
As for end users - it doesn't matter which framework we choose. Ultimately, plugin developers copy what the core app has done or what its API does and only adventure into the framework if you're that type of developer. You can just as easily use your own code - the framework is just there to stop you reinventing the wheel and make your life easier.